Every day until you learn

UBI is still a NEETs wet dream though. People still work under national socialism and no one is paying taxes so half the country can be mindless consoomers.

No, but with sufficient technology, your lunch can have a negligible cost that takes only a moment of two to meet. Or are you going to argue that improvements in efficiency don't exist? Or that they have a magical ceiling somehow?

There is nothing socialistic about UBI. Read C.H. Douglas's works on social credit. The necessary money will be printed, not taxed. Socialism is predicated on taking/stealing from people, not giving them things for free. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" - UBI/SC takes from nobody and gives without distinction, so literally the opposite of Marxism.

She's wrong, though. Money is a creature of the state -- it can't run out of money. You can run into inflation beyond a tolerable threshold, but the state can never run out of money. The state creates money. It spends before it taxes, not the other way around.

why don't we just shoot you useless niggers and give the money to people who are of some use?

We don't need UBI. People already cut out Walmart and Amazon and went directly to chinese factory sites. Even people in the sticks. Even people in the hood.

That sounds awesome, so why would you settle for just "basic" income if the state can just print up infinite money and give us all a billion dollars a year then we can all have a beach house on Nantucket and collect supercars and shit?

Im fine with UBI. We cant survive with no jobs

That sounds awesome, so why would you settle for just "basic" income if the state can just print up infinite money and give us all a billion dollars a year then we can all have a beach house on Nantucket and collect supercars and shit?

Because you would run into intolerable levels of inflation in that scenario. What Douglas was mostly focused on was what he called his A+B theorem, where wages and dividends paid out are never enough to purchase the total of goods and services produced. So there is this persistent gap in purchasing power among labor.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

translation: the more successful you are, the more we take "From" you.
and the more useless and needy you are, the more you are given "to."
this creates an environment where not being self sufficient is rewarded and being successful is punished.
such a society that cannot cultivate successful people to milk cannot survive.
your solution to this problem is?

Give me give me give me! Do you ever just listen to yourself and be like I’m a cartoon character of a brat childYou will be fine when it is inevitably plagued with massive fraud and corruption as well because the media will just cover it up. Automation would make products and services dirt cheap if people like you who have no original ideas except ‘ government will think of something’ we’re not the majority and instead of printing more money for handouts we would have a deflating currency

I see, so this just robs from those of us who do produce something via inflation but if you don't rob too much you feel we will tolerate supporting you? Good luck with that, nigger.

they will sooner cull you all off and replace it with ai robots lol that's what trump is doing right now too he's preparing the economic collapse to make most take state sponsored euthanasia

You clearly haven't read up on social credit (no relation to Chinese social credit, just an unfortunately similar name). The monthly payments (called the national dividend) are based on how efficient the economy currently is. So if, on average, little human labor is needed, the dividend increases. Conversely, if the economy contracts, more labor is needed so the dividend naturally shinks as well, creating more incentive to work. You can think of it like train tickets. What's the optimal number of tickets? The number of available seats. Cleary, just printing "infinite" tickets would be dumb.

I'm only in favor of socialist ideas such as USB in a nationalistic context such as only white men with families receive it under certain conditions. See Nazi policies on affordable home loans and reduction in home loans for each child born.
America is too browned for me to support UBI anymore. 10 years ago maybe but it is a net negative on the white race in this country now.

Read up on how social credit works. I mean that seriously I'm not trying to be patronizing. It's counterintuitive but it ads up. Payments are made according to flat national dividend. An individual billionaire gets the same check as an individual homeless man every month. No government "deciding" how much each person should get. Thus, not "according to need". The money is printed, not taxed. It isn't "taken according to ability".
"Aha" you say, "but won't printing cause inflation?? Doesn't that rob people, especially the poor and middle class?" No. The point of social credit is the treasury prints money according to the gap between the money that exists and the value of the real economy. Conversely, if too much money exists (its total value is greater than the value of the real economy) the dividend goes to zero until that changes, and the government actually destroys money instead of printing it. The whole point is to never have either inflation nor deflation, but a money supply that reflects the value of the real economy.

There is nothing socialistic about UBI in the form of social credit.

Eventually we are r going to have a choice but to implement some sort of UBI, but my question how much are we going to have to trade to get it?

Definitely going to get implemented once all the Boomers die off, and Social Security gets done away with for good.

free shit is poison to the human condition

national SOCIALISM

Fuck you and get your hands out of my pocket.

There is nothing socialistic about UBI

You're right, it's communism.

UBI in a core you get x money each month and maybe yearly cola raise is socialist.
You trying to pivot the conversation to social credit is kike distraction. The thread is about UBI not social credit.

You're right, it's communism.

No it isn't. Go through Marx's planks of communism and show me which one either calls for or is support by UBI/SC. Did you know that plank #5 calls for a central bank? Social credit requires the abolition of banks (at least as money creators) and central banks. It's totally contrary to communism. People just jump on the idea that it's "socialistic" or communistic because it has "social" in the name. Of course there is nothing social about either socialism or communism; both totally destroy actual society.

Social credit is just UBI that adjusts with the efficiency/real productivity of the economy, and which is printed instead of taxed. You're lashing out because you don't actually understand the issue.

How stop inflation w/out price controls

Are you going to start paying for air? How about sunlight?

New york and some middle american town will have the same income

super trillionare has majority of land

all means of production

has ai robot factories

uses factories to produce goods imagined by thinkers

thinkers submit ideas to be produced

ideas are voted on

ideas that obtain a majority are produced

everyone receives product

can opt out (somehow allowing you to save for another vote or item or multiple of items)

trillionare gets some exclusive rights, because they aren't sending those robots to work for nothing you know

This is exactly right. Technological improvements mean you need some form of UBI. Otherwise you have forced, fake jobs to let people "earn" money. Boomer infatuation with laboring is indeed the biggest obstacle at the moment.

It wont work. At least untill we reach moment that human as entire species gets access to infinite resource and full work automation.

Otherwise UBI will just lead to inflation.

UBI must be coupled with land value tax. Income tax is a form of slavery. Land value tax is the only fair tax.

It's just gibs for Niggers. That's all it is and ever will be. If you support this, you're a thieving coonback Nigger.

tax me nigga

No

drop the 'l' in 'learn'.

How LMAOist of you chairmen.

False. Always will be false. You stupid Niggers will be given all this shit for free and you'll STILL fuck it up. It'll have no net benefit at all, only a gigantic resource drain to do what? So you can go fuck a million baby mamas and spread AIDS?

Kill yourself tonight.

You're stuck thinking in extreme terms. If the economy gets 5% automated away, then the SC/UBI dividend would comprise about 5% of the value of the real economy, divided among the population. No automation/full need for labor = $0 dividend = maximum incentive for labor participation. Full automated "Star Trek" economy = $valueOfTheEconomy/sizeOfPopulation = no labor incentive. In between, the number is in between.

Wow amazing arguments you have there you banker apologist.

Get a job you bum

If the economy gets 5% automated away

how much of the economy is already automated? What does "automated away" even mean?

$0 dividend = maximum incentive for labor participation

we already have this and, if i remember correctly, we already have millions of people that have dropped out of the workforce(unemployed/underemployed). so this premise is just fundamentally wrong. already.

Your issue is demanding or even requiring labor incentive machines get this, they just work, same with people

Is not labor incentive but things being designed to be worked with, currently they are designed to not be stolen

You are being a nigger and trying to pivot the conversation from UB still by being nearly 1/5 of the post in the thread. UBI is universally everyone in the country gets x dollars a month. Social credit may be the same but on a curve to zero. Sounds pretty gay to me and the government could fudge numbers to withhold money I deserve. But I'm sure the chinks have some counter measure to prevent corruption since the CCP is known for being so free of corruption.
This thread has been jewed mainly because of you shitting up the thread. Have fun anyone who bumps this to 300+.
Dumb bongs advocating for a tax which will literally return you to being serfs. LVT will just lead to datacenters paying the same in taxes as a dozen local shops while utilities skyrocket in price. I guess it is in your blood to be ruled over by a lord. Thank God my family took the first boats to America from that land of dregs.

Pay niggers to live

blah blah blah you're a banker apologist if you won't let me freeload and spread diseases and commit crimes and pump out a bunch of kids I won't care for

Oh look, a retard! Suck start a shotgun you fucking parasite.

tax me $12k to give me $10k

your family tree is a problem

All these wagies seething until AI replaces them. NEETs eating good playing the waiting game.

how much of the economy is already automated? What does "automated away" even mean?

Automated away means the job is done by machines/automation instead of by a person, obviously.

we already have this and, if i remember correctly, we already have millions of people that have dropped out of the workforce(unemployed/underemployed). so this premise is just fundamentally wrong. already.

We do not have this at all. We have a socialistic system which pays people based on personal circumstances (unemployment, disability, whatever). As to the claim about people "dropping out of the workforce" this is nonsense. We have entered a permanent job shortage already (made worse by mass immigration, but that's incidental). There are loads "good, hardworking" people who want jobs and can't get them. The "welfare queen" and the "lazy NEET" are just strawmen.

Couldn't understand your ESL post, no offense.

Money is a creature of the state

the state creates money

Lol.
(You) are the OP and 100 percent *CLUELESS*.
Money is created by private central banks as Debt

Watch and learn (everyone itt)

The Money Deluge
youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs

97% Owned : How is money created
youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo

he thinks neets like him will get anything

All that money will go to jews and shitskins while you will have your neetbux taxed to pay for tyrone to pump out 500 kids (half of them rapes) he won't look after.

It'll be doled out on an "as needed" basis, meaning you'll probably even lose your neetbux because "whitey" doesn't need anything but tondie according to mr.shekkelburg

Not going to happen as long as we have Republican house majority

reminder they literally shot down a bill that prevented Super PACs with unlimited funding for political campaigns

(You) are the OP and 100 percent *CLUELESS*. Money is created by private central banks as Debt

No you are fucking clueless. Money is indeed *currently* created by private central banks as debt; that's 100% right. Social credit requires that money be issued by the government, and be debt free. You know zero about social credit or you would know this, it's basic.

Everyone else in the thread understood him just fine, you're just being a faggot because you cant refute what he or the other people you stopped replying to said.

UBI is a non-starter to anyone with an IQ over 80, because we know somebody has to pay for ot and it won't be the billionaires, it will be the already heavily overtaxed working/middle class.

you want free money for life because we exist in the universe?

UBI cant happen unless rent control comes with it or 99% of all landlords will just raise the rent the match the UBI

The democrats won't give it to you either you fucking mong. They literally dangled student loan forgiveness in your faces TWICE and laughed at you as they put that card away, and you're dumb enough to think they'll just give you UBI?

lol. LMAO even.

No, people will not be serfs, you are ignoring the UBI component. What I am proposing is that everyone has an equal share in the value of the countries land. Land value tax is collected and shared among the people. If you want land you can use your UBI to offset the LVT.

Another important thing in this new system is that natural resources will carry significant LVT. So large corporations will no longer be able to excessively profit from natural resources, instead this money will go back into the UBI system.

The necessary money will be printed, not taxed.

in a just society someone as retarded as you would be euthanized to stop wasting the time of regular citizens

This.
I would have made some epic music

Nice hyperbolic attempt at reframing. I clearly stated that people should be paid free money according to how efficient the economy is? Why would I work when a robot can do everything for me? Conversely, if there are things robots can't do, then people need to work/be unpaid in that proportion.

Also nice try ignoring my question. Should people pay for sunlight? For air? You said that free stuff was poison to the human condition. Obviously, this cannot be true. *Certain* free stuff under *certain* conditions can be poison. In other situations, it's the only reasonable state of affairs.

paying fat retards to exist

*depopulates you instead*

13 pbtid vomitspew bot$&*m itt

(You) are a Fucking Retard.
Money _is_ Debt owed to private central banks, all of it every nation. Entire post-1970s Financialized global economy is *founded on* and sustained by, built from Debt that is on the backs of every 'social credit' and individual 'credit receiver' aka person, *owed to private investment banks* (<--that are Primary Dealers for central banks)
***(You)*** advocating 'social credit' are a shill for private central banks.
Global debt topped $255 trillion in 2019 and $307 trillion in 2023, more than three times the amount of all global economic output. Total debt levels and deficit spending of the past 30 years has eclipsed that of the past few centuries of Western civilization and absurdly low and negative interest rate borrowing costs have incentivized national governments to no longer borrow on the expectation that they will repay, but rather the expectation that they will refinance.

The entire world is a debt slave colony to central banks (and retard concepts like 'social credit' **ENFORCE AND INCREASE** it)
Lol, "issued by the government" kek
Fucking moron bot

WATCH the documentaries provided ^^ above

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-to-GDP_ratio

Automated away means the job is done by machines/automation instead of by a person, obviously.

but that already exists? even if you just look at farming, the average farmer cultivates ~10x what they did 100 years ago. most machines/automation don't take away jobs, the average worker just does more in the same timeframe.

I recently read about farming employment in the early 20th century, and I think the average US farming output increased by 3x while the number of workers didn't change.

I think you fundamentally don't understand what automation actually does in a job.

There are loads "good, hardworking" people who want jobs and can't get them.

Which means they are unemployed. Which is what I said. These are exactly the people being described as "dropping out of the workforce."

The "welfare queen" and the "lazy NEET" are just strawmen.

That was never brought up. Besides, UBI does nothing to address that situation so I don't know why you brought it up.

Lol another 1pbtid name calling "rebuttal". You're right; central bank control of the money supply and making people "work" in the era of AI and robots makes complete sense.

'I'm lazy and want the government to take care of me'

You already do through your taxes. You pay for niggers spics, and disabled people to exits. But when whites can try and get a fair share? Nah fuck them let them rot wagecucking maintaining a system that hates them, and steals their income to keep browns alive.

Anonymous (ID: avNSkK7y) 15 pbtid = bot$p*mmer

I didn't call you a name, I called you a retard, because you are literally retarded. this idea that you just get free money and don't have to do anything for it is retarded. you are a defective cancer in our society allowed to fester because we do not cull mental illnesses correctly. you do nothing but anchor us down. the idea that anyone should waste their precious time on this earth trying to explain to you why your retarded idea will never work is ludicrous at best, and evil at worse. go learn to code and get a job you fucking lazy faggot retard

Except I'd rather have blue corporates that will at least try and pretend that they follow the constitution, over red corporates that don't bother to hide it.

but that already exists? even if you just look at farming, the average farmer cultivates ~10x what they did 100 years ago. most machines/automation don't take away jobs, the average worker just does more in the same timeframe.

Right but needs and even wants of the population at a given moment are finite. Even if people devoted themselves to gluttonous consumption all day, there's still a finite limit. We already waste/destroy about 1/3 of total food production. The end result of tech is the near-complete eclipsing of the need for labor.

These are exactly the people being described as "dropping out of the workforce."

No, "dropping out" implies agency - giving up, being lazy, whatever. And sure, you can find some people for whom this is true. But the major issue is permanent technological unemployment. Those people weren't dropped out, they were kicked out. When someone is expelled from college, fired, discharge from the military, you don't say they "dropped out".

Everything else you wrote is incorrect/nonsense/a failure to understand my posts or actually read about the topic.

Oh no! An anon is posting about a topic here cares about in a thread on that topic! It must be a bot!

[schizophrenic jewish rambling]

Yeah okay, get in the fucking oven chaim.

your body works for every breath you take you fucking spastic. people who don't get sunlight get depressed and kill themselves. you imagine free money will open up all these possibilities for you. that people will become poets and painters and shit. they wont. they sit on the couch and become alcoholics. we don't grow like that. muscles that don't work atrophy. the human spirit is just like that.

Anonymous (ID: avNSkK7y) 17 pbtid bot keeps $p*mming

That's the problem with leftists, they're so fucking stupid and egotistical they'd rather have the smooth talker lie to, and laugh in their faces than the guys who are honest about not caring.

Fucking dumb cunts, the lot of you.

You're already doing that though.

you're a dimwit, op. the world sees through you.

We already waste/destroy about 1/3 of total food production.

and that's a good thing? it prevents food shortages if there's a disruption to production/transportation/storage.

The end result of tech is the near-complete eclipsing of the need for labor.

I think a more accurate interpretation of it, is that it's easier to transfer the production of the economy to new products. you still need people to direct the automation.

No, "dropping out" implies

amigo, there's no need to get bogged down in the weeds. The point was that there's already a large segment that's underemployed/unemployed(which we agree on).

But the major issue is permanent technological unemployment. Those people weren't dropped out, they were kicked out.

Right, but were does that happen? At least on the large scale? Yes, seamstresses lost their jobs, but someone had to operate the automated looms. Yes, you don't need as many people to grow crops, but you need more people to drive the trucks to the stores to carry all the extra food.

I think the issue is that you UBI proponents haven't really shown what the world will look like that will require UBI and how we get there such that your argument for UBI will be inevitable.

poop

your body works for every breath you take you fucking spastic.

You're just mincing words and dissimulating. "Working" to breathe is clearly not the same as "working" for McDonalds. Are billionaires "working" from their yachts just because they're breathing?

people who don't get sunlight get depressed and kill themselves

Wait wait wait I thought free stuff was poison to the human condition. Now it's essential for survival? Make up your mind.

you imagine free money will open up all these possibilities for you

I simply imagine actual things people could accomplish if they had to wage less for some boomer and had more time for themselves. Is that really controversial?

that people will become poets and painters and shit. they wont. they sit on the couch and become alcoholics.

Sitting on the couch and becoming alcoholics is what waging does to people. I don't care what people do with their own time, just as I don't want anyone else demanding what I do with my spare time.

muscles that don't work atrophy. the human spirit is just like that.

You simply can't imagine doing anything with your own time if you had full command, or even greater command, of it. Working for another man's profit is what you see your own purpose as, and what you see as the purpose for others. You're a slave.

The day that you be a chef at Wendy can buy a house, car was long gone.
Like it is possible in early 90s that is a very long time even you feel like 1995 is yesterday in the morning.

Based and social credit pilled.

and that's a good thing? it prevents food shortages if there's a disruption to production/transportation/storage.

Destroying food prevents food shortages?

I think a more accurate interpretation of it, is that it's easier to transfer the production of the economy to new products. you still need people to direct the automation.

If there weren't an actual gain in efficiency nobody would bother. Do you really think that no matter how good tech gets, the same economy-wide labor input is needed? Technological unemployment is an inevitability, and it has already started.

The point was that there's already a large segment that's underemployed/unemployed(which we agree on).

And this will only grow as tech continues to, no matter what.

> I think the issue is that you UBI proponents haven't really shown what the world will look like that will require UBI and how we get there such that your argument for UBI will be inevitable.
Read picrelated

The necessary money will be printed, not taxed.

this is different than stealing!

you can't be this fucking stupid

Most of you humans are too retarded to understand. But it doesn't matter anymore. UBI WILL happen.

What's the optimal number of tickets? The number of available seats.

The irony being that MMT actually disagrees, the optimal number of tickets is more than the number of seats because that will trick people into making the train bigger.

It's insane how brainwashed people are into defending banksterism, usury, and labor for labor's sake.

Look at this dude, using a quote from a female. The communists are right, rich people have other people's money and it's time they gave it back.

You'd be digging the ditches, faggot.

printed

by private central banks, as Debt
that citizens are debtors for
(see above ^^^^^)

What does an airline or train operator do if they don't have enough physical (or digital) tickets to equal the available seats on a plane or train? Do they print the right number of tickets? Or do they borrow tickets from a private bank with interest?
I'm talking about printing debt-free currency issued by government treasuries, not debt based, bank owned money.

You'd be digging the ditches, faggot

Really the answer to OP and the 20 pbtid bot$*ammer

you commies literally cannot comprehend being self employed. you're only idea of work is wagecaging for some globohomo megacorp because you're all low test middle class daddy issue spergs.

just be dependent on the government bro

Yeah, no. Fuck off

Yes, and MMT is wrong because it sees "fully employment" as goal, rather than as something that will be reduced by tech. Labor for labor's sake shouldn't be a goal of monetary policy (or anything).

Are you a billionaire? If not – you are a cuck.

MMT

= flat earth money

Get a job, hippie.

Destroying food prevents food shortages?

you destroy the food after there isn't a shortage. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. food production isn't a set in stone thing thanks to the variability of nature. if there's a 15% variability in the amount of food you can produce in a year, you want to create a system were you create 20% extra so that you never have a problem.

Do you really think that no matter how good tech gets, the same economy-wide labor input is needed? Technological unemployment is an inevitability, and it has already started.

probably not. I'm just asking where is it? If I was being cynical, I'd say that's the reason 60% of the US economy deals with finance, but you aren't making that argument. Technology is pushing people from labor type jobs into busy work type jobs like finance. If that's your argument, I'd love to hear it, because I also think it's true.

And this will only grow as tech continues to, no matter what.

And I want to know how you know this is caused by technology, as opposed to something like a complete collapse of the trust of institutions?

Read picrelated

do you have anything that isn't written by a fiction author?

MMT just describes the monetary system as it actually exists. There are different policy proposals from people associated or involved with MMT, but the core research is just how the system actually works. And they are right.

Keep telling yourself that commie.

if there's a 15% variability in the amount of food you can produce in a year, you want to create a system were you create 20% extra so that you never have a problem.

Ok so we agree that the means to solve food production has been found. So as efficiency keeps increasing, what are all those laid off people going to do?

I'm just asking where is it?

Go to any forum for job seekers and you'll see it. I think Anon Babble already has a "perpetually unemployed tech worker" thread or something to that effect.

And I want to know how you know this is caused by technology, as opposed to something like a complete collapse of the trust of institutions?

If this weren't inherently true of technology, technology wouldn't be pursued. Why would we use the wheel if dragging shit around was just as good? Why would we invent cars if walking was just as fast?

do you have anything that isn't written by a fiction author?

Of course: douglassocialcredit.com/publications-1

I posted Heinlein's book because you asked for an image of what a future of UBI (or in this case SC) would look like so I provided you one. The book itself really isn't meant to be "fictional" in the sense of a novel, it's an illustration of how Douglas' principles would look when applied. But of course, if you want straight nonfiction, now you have that as well.

so instead of making welfare more efficient by removing the leeches and making sure only the truly incapable are taken care of, your answer is to debase the value of the dollar and destroy everyone's wealth by inflating the money fly to infinity. the gallows for you.

No one buys goods or services from self employed people, is the issue. Self employed are more dependent on wagies than wagies are on them, it's not a good thing but it's the way things are. Collaboration is necessary, unless you want gangworld.

4 pbtid

as it actually exists

checked, another Clueless Faggot. (or a deliberate shill paid to be here)

Learn:
What Money is
How it is created

If UBI works like tickets, then it's like food stamps. And it would require a real physical good corresponding to the ticket.

Otherwise what you get is inflation, because you have the ticket, but not the physical asset. And those who produce the goods, not just lack the incentive, but also the capacity... in the context of rampant inflation it's impossible to operate as a business. The point of any currency is that it creates prices as a form of information. If you're continuously printing currency or tickets, you create inflation thus no one knows how much things are going to cost.

If AI automatically creates the goods, you can implement an UBI system. Don't even call it UBI, you no longer need currency because AI doesn't take a salary. You get rights to goods daily and monthly. You can claim your food every day and AI would provide it, you get to claim living quarters. You're also free tu run a parallel economy with traditional money if you want, buy and sell things you produce.

Venezuela's problems are related to production. Their economy was too reliant on the oil sector, and when productive output declined it dragged everything with it. But money was not Venezuela's problem -- they had plenty of that, as every state does.

kike distraction

Of course money is created as debt -- that's just basic double entry book keeping. I don't know why you think this is some gotcha.

Money has an origin point. Money has to be left behind in the economy in order for the private sector to generate savings. That is what "government debt" is. The problem is we have retards who keep thinking we need to pay it.

pwr.asia/post/ubi-win-win-win-for-singaporeans-investors-and-the-government

one of the many ways to achieve universal basic income

requires specific existing structures

requires a secured borders

requires global investors

requires governments to invest in their citizens

Win win win, I think Singapore is one of the few places that can actually achieve this.

if niggers get UBI, the faggots on the left can't write it off as "They can't afford basic necessities." Less aspects for them to argue with. One step closer to getting everyone to rightfully hate them.

Of course money is created as debt

Are you 12? Money is an asset, fiat replaced money in 1972. A silver dollar is money, a dollar bill is an IOU.

If UBI works like tickets, then it's like food stamps. And it would require a real physical good corresponding to the ticket.

No, but I understand why you would think this. Food stamps are just proxies for a certain amount of money to be paid to wherever the food is being bought. It's still in effect bank-issued, debt based money.

As for the rest of you post, you're incorrectly thinking that SC is about continually printing money. This is untrue. You print money when the economy grows, to match its value. You destroy money when the economy shrinks, to match its value. If the economy stays in equilibrium, neither money creation nor destruction takes place. Inflation cannot occur in such a system.

Your last paragraph is almost totally, but again you're thinking in extreme terms. If *full* AI driven production exists, then you have "full" UBI because how else would you "earn" money when the AI automation system can do it faster/better/cheaper? If we're say x% of the way to that point, then you need x% UBI, because you can't "earn" the x% of the economy that the automation *such as exists at that time* can do better than you can labor for it.

6 pbtid
checked, Shut The Fuck UP paid shill.

Anonymous (ID: avNSkK7y) 25 pbtid bot$*ammer-by-the-line

Not going to happen for another 50 years.

Pretty much. Do it too early and everything collapses. There is not enough oversupply and automation to support the allocation system.

That's the key, not UBI, but an allocation system that sets a perishable consumption limit. It makes it impossible to amass wealth.

I believe that I am a product of my choices - not my circumstances.

What a retard.

Money is a deed to trust - it is a contract, and contracts can be broken. It's ability to be broken is its innate debt nature.

So as efficiency keeps increasing, what are all those laid off people going to do?

actually the point I'm making is that the number of people would remain constant while efficiency increases. so it becomes a 0% growth industry, but that doesn't mean there aren't any industries that are 0% growth. Technology just makes it faster which industries become stable(no new jobs). If anything the problem with technology will be that it will infinitely make the workforce/labor more competitive and volatile.

Go to any forum for job seekers and you'll see it.

again, how do you know this is caused by technology and not other economic issues? and I don't know how UBI solves the problem that the growth phase of the IT sector is ending.

Why would we use the wheel if dragging shit around was just as good? Why would we invent cars if walking was just as fast?

I think you are unintentionally making my argument. Your argument here would be like claiming the invention of cars means that less people are traveling around the country. I don't think that is true. The argument isn't that we shouldn't use technology.

Why would money ever be an "asset"? Why would you ever want it to be? You guys are morons. We had this same argument for years when we had metal money -- that's where bimetallism comes from. People who owned gold removed silver from the monetary system because they wanted to "fight inflation".

They need that we all do, for all those things we could do if we knew everything that we don't

I have no personal agency

What a pathetic nigger.

Yeah, note that point 1 is "I have won the greatest lottery of all time". How is this a product of choices? Clearly, we should follow his example and got to college to study opera, since his successful life is a result of that choice.

The problem is we have retards who keep thinking we need to pay it.

no, the problem is that the US dollar is slowly becoming not the reserve currency of the world. meaning we will eventually have to pay it or the dollar becomes worthless because no one wants it because it's future value can't be trusted.

deed to trust

Money is Debt.
created by private central banks
That debt is owed to private central banks by citizens of the sovereign treasury that enabled their creation
Central banks' only goal is to increase their money (Debt) creation as far and wide as possible, to become the lenders and buyers of last resort That _is_ the system, how it works

archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/451293951

504098313

Go troll on plebbit you gay retard. no more yous for yous

UBI is a no-brainer the moment we figure out a way to incentivize people to work other than necessity. We haven't. While it might be an ideal worth pursuing, it's a fucking pipe dream. Now, a good way to implement UBI would be to gut existing social programs and retarded processes and just give people money. It's cheaper and more efficient in many ways than scrutinizing every minute detail of a person's life.

Other than that, UBI advocates need to innovate ways to motivate people to truly sell their ideas.

actually the point I'm making is that the number of people would remain constant while efficiency increases

Ok, so if the people are constant, but efficiency *continually goes up* eventually you'll hit a point where people barely need to work to get the same output. In other words, permanent unemployment. You can't have permanently sufficient production but permanently insufficient labor.

again, how do you know this is caused by technology and not other economic issues?

Ask yourself what happened to all the people who used to get jobs hunting whales for oil now that we have electric lights.

I think you are unintentionally making my argument. Your argument here would be like claiming the invention of cars means that less people are traveling around the country. I don't think that is true. The argument isn't that we shouldn't use technology.

False equivalence - driving around isn't working. But ask yourself what will happen to all the work related driving (trucking, taxis, uber, whatever) when cars are self driving?

Huh? Why would that matter? Why would we need to pay it because the dollar loses reserve status?

China doesn't need to pay theirs. Japan doesn't need to pay theirs. Nor Canada, Australia, etc. You're not fundamentally understanding what the debt is -- this is the problem.

The debt is a record of money the government has spent into the economy that it has not removed from taxation. This is a necessary process for the private sector to generate savings.

youtube.com/watch?v=ge4HwvFbz0s

It's not one or the other it's both. Clearly personal choices matter, and clearly circumstances matter.

efficiency *continually goes up* eventually you'll hit a point where people barely need to work to get the same output.

but we're no where near that.

Ask yourself what happened to all the people who used to get jobs hunting whales for oil now that we have electric lights.

they worked somewhere else? someone had to work in the factory to make the lightbulbs. someone had to lay the wires to connect the lights to the power plants. none of those existed before the lightbulb.

But ask yourself what will happen to all the work related driving (trucking, taxis, uber, whatever) when cars are self driving?

something else? i guess the question is how do you know that automation will be to the point that it pre-emptively obsoletes the new jobs that will exist because of new technology?

we can save on admin

instead of scrutinizing every minute detail of a person's life.

they don't scrutinize laqueesha nor the goldsteinbergs as it is

shill 8 pbtid

fundamentally understanding what the debt is

Already was explained
Here youtube.com/watch?v=SMHQaxd5N-Q

[Dec 11, 2019 global / IMF national debts and loans] "... Borrowing has become a 'costless' exercise in recent decades, where we've seen that: no longer will countries borrow on the expectation that they will repay. They borrow on the expectation that they will refinance. And in a zero, or low, or negative interest rate [set by private central banks] environmen, that's a costless exercise. You just borrow and, you're actually getting paid (in Germany's case) for the privilege of borrowing. So that's a great thing; but that's not necessarily going to last forever, in fact I would argue it's impossible to believe it's going to last forever. At some point, these low/absurdly low and negative interest rate borrowing costs are going to turn around. And since you're not borrowing on the basis of an ability to repay, rather on the ability to refinance, when those refinancing cost go up: where's the money coming from?"

If republicans weren't retarded, they'd get ahead on this so they can control the direction of it. But yeah, they're dumb. Either way, it's coming.

Can't wait buddy, I'll sit back and do nothing while you work for the money they give me.

but the US dollar is worth more than all those other currencies because it is the reserve currency. if the us dollar is no longer the reserve currency and it's completely overleveraged, no on wants it, so it's relative value decreases.

This is a necessary process for the private sector to generate savings

US private savings = 11 trillion
US government debt = 38 trillion

maybe the other 25 trillion is in private companies? or in other countries?

didn't claim circumstances are irrelevant. but only a redditnigger thinks they can't be transcended.

I don't know why what the IMF says would matter. Of course they want you to think you need to pay it back -- their whole modus operandi is going into countries and giving them loans denominated in foreign currency and demanding austerity be imposed on the populations so they can extract surplus value.

The entire borrowing operation for the State is a self-imposed legal restraint in the first place. There is no actual accounting or natural need to do it.

where's the money coming from?

The same place it always has been, more loans. Doesn't matter what the rate is, because the person who is really paying is anyone holding dollars.

but the US dollar is worth more than all those other currencies because it is the reserve currency. if the us dollar is no longer the reserve currency and it's completely overleveraged, no on wants it, so it's relative value decreases.

Hasn't the US been sending trade negotiators to Asia for 30 years complaining that the dollar isn't weak enough?

need to pay it back

How is the United States going to finance its government when *interest alone* on the $38T national debt, that grows annually by another $2T budget, exceeds its military total spending?

i guess the question is how do you know that automation will be to the point that it pre-emptively obsoletes the new jobs that will exist because of new technology? Yes this is the crux of the issue. And the answer again is that if these were not the case, we wouldn't pursue tech. Why would a business ever invest in tech if it didn't provide more efficiency? They wouldn't.

Maybe stop selling bonds in the first place? This is really not complicated, buddy.

youtube.com/watch?v=pex89N9Oqog

it's coming and it's inevitable just because it is ok

I won't work for you, the robots will. Think of SC/UBI as your share of the "robot's paycheck".

more loans

See my first post itt.
Money is Debt, created by central banks.
Central banks' sole mission is to create more and more giga-debt worldwide to every person and sovereign nation everywhere, to become the lenders and buyers of last resort.

Hasn't the US been sending trade negotiators to Asia for 30 years complaining that the dollar isn't weak enough?

is that what they were saying? i thought they were arguing that Asian countires(China?) were treating Asia currencies as a way to buy up cheap US dollars(then assets) based on an incorrect valuation?

This is a necessary process for the private sector to generate savings.

This is where your understanding ends. The problem is that all these surplus dollars are spent on consumables, almost all of it imported. Foreigners that produce these goods end up with the excess money who then use it to buy land and take over your country from within.

This is why trade deficits are bad.

I agree. Landkikes take out loans with high interest from Jews to take necessities (housing) off the market (artificial inflation) in order to siphon the difference of rent payment and their mortgage loan while the Jewish bankers "created value" by issuing a fake money loan and having the common man pay it in order to not be homeless.

I won't work for you, the robots will

Uh huh, ok I'll sit here and wait for you to make the robots.

implying basic income wouldnt insure exponential inflation

Lol, lmao. Good luck convincing the pleb who think the bread and circuses is a right is a thing they should spit out for their owb sake. Or said otherwise, implementing UBI would only insure the power that be have an undeniable interest in never abolishing such a policy forevermore, if it were to be implemented, it would be basically irreversible and due to the current inflationary rates, couldnt be reduced via better fiscal policies or greater mobey valuation, as to do such would be paramount to cutting from the potential monetary gains the recipient could gain from such, which WILL be used by kikes as an opportunity to keep the current status quo. So basically, once implemented, it wouldnt be possible to modify the recieved income without massive outrage, which I believe is the intended intent, as it patently pretent improvement to the inflationary rates, which is the true culprit owed for the nessecity of such fiscal measures.

Aka get fucked kikes.

Makes sense to me, robotics in expanding at a rapid pace.

Why would a business ever invest in tech if it didn't provide more efficiency? They wouldn't.

the point i'm trying to make is that an increase in efficiency doesn't mean there's 0 input of labor. zero times anything equals zero. each person being able to make more with their time means that there will be more different kinds of things made in order for people to compete in the marketplace. I don't know if the fact that i can make 2 video games in a year instead of 1 because of AI means that no one will work to make video games.

I think the argument that technology will make things infinitely more competitive is probably true, but I don't think it will mean there will be no work.

I'm down for it.

Advancements in tech, Automation, and now AI for smart jobs have or are being pushed out. We're now fighting for shit jobs unless you're already rich from generational wealth.

Idiots now go into $100,000+ of debt and never repay. They paying debt with debt or die with debt or go bankrupt. Society takes the toll for these assholes. Banks have to increase interest rates, insure from tax payers, or family pays on their death. UBI instead of realizing afterwards with credit score that they're shit with money. It can be controlled this way.

The people who deserve to escape poverty can with it. If not, at least we don't have to see homeless people stink up the streets.We can weed out the niggers from black people based on spending. The left faggots defend the stealing because their basic needs are supposed to be met. The chicken washers can't play dumb by non application of welfare or stamps because its automatic.

all inflation is exponential

Asian countries can't print US dollars, so they have to acquire them in some way. It would seem if the US's primary problem was Asian countries acquiring dollars in the first place, then not buying Asian goods in the first place is the most straightforward way around that "problem".
Well, sure -- if you run a trade surplus then you don't necessarily need to run a government budget deficit, because you would be drawing your surplus from the foreign sector. The point is that the surplus has to come from somewhere.

Not everywhere can always be in surplus. One asset is another liability. Double entry book keeping.

Remember when all the UBI retards pushed for those COVID stimulus checks despite people warning it would cause inflation? Now everything is 3x-5x more expensive and everyone has easily lost more personal wealth than those checks provided

I think the argument that technology will make things infinitely more competitive is probably true, but I don't think it will mean there will be no work.

Indeed, we *may* never reach a "zero work Star Trek economy". But the reduction in necessary labor *that have been made so far* and *is continuing to be made* mean that we have already reached point of partial - but indeed not yet total - permanent unemployment. Barring some mega disaster like nuclear war that sets us back, this will either remain constant, or continue to increase. Thus, without some free source of money, the present economy will be unsustainable, and grow less and less sustainable.

shill 11 pbtid

MMT flat earth money larptard fantasy vid

stop selling bonds.

kek
This is what (You) retards simply don't get
Learn how money is created.
Watch '97% Owned' [posted ^^^^^above]

Every unit of sovereign debt note fiat currency brought into existence (dollars, yen, pound, whatever) has to have issued by the nation's treasury a corresponding Bond that must be bought.
Debt needs to be purchased. Confidence and stability in the global debt (bond) market needs to be retained, in order for the global Debt-Based Economic Model to stay afloat.
This confidence (in the debt market), is the only thing keeping us from instantaneous Mad Max.
Right now May 2025, for a couple years the debt (bond) market has been capriciously unstable and volatile. Bonds are supposed to remain reliable, stable, steady, not whipsaw-up-and-down (like stocks / crypto do).
Biggest part of the global bond market is, of course, the dominant global reserved debt note fiat currency unit : USD
Everything is transacted, or preferred to be, in USD denomination. Sovereign debt, corporate debts/HNW transactions, eurodollar time dependent deposits, equities, all of it. The dollar is the preferred, relied upon, 'stable' currency unit compared to all the other (debt note fiat currency) belles at the ball.
When the debt market collapses so does the entirety of global economy.

A couple years ago, nobody was buying English bonds and this threatened the U.K. pensions, BoE therefore had to enter those bonds onto their balance sheet / buy them up. Central banks can do this to some degree but it locks up their economy even more to central bank control (see Bank of Japan which owns sixty percent of their bond market)

It would seem if the US's primary problem was Asian countries acquiring dollars in the first place, then not buying Asian goods in the first place is the most straightforward way around that "problem".

so Trump's tariffs are the solution?

A couple years ago, nobody was buying English bonds and this threatened the U.K. pensions, BoE therefore had to enter those bonds onto their balance sheet / buy them up. Central banks can do this to some degree but it locks up their economy even more to central bank control (see Bank of Japan which owns sixty percent of their bond market)

Uh like it was totally a problem and then the Central Bank just bought them up and it stopped being a problem

Yeah.. I know. Almost like the Central Bank has unlimited money (it does).

Things are 3x-5x more expensive because businesses realized they could use covid checks, supply chain problems, and general fear/disaster as a *pretext* to increase prices. Any prices increases that were actually related to those checks didn't matter; corporations actually paid for it, not people.

Think about how inflation causes theft - the first group who get the newly printed money get to spend it before the inflation kicks in - it's free money for them. But as they spend, prices adjust upwards. The further down in the transaction chain you are, the less benefit you have. Eventually, you get to a point where you got no actual cash influx from the printing, but now the prices are higher.

Usually, the first spenders are governments or corporations - and thus inflation robs from the people at their benefit. But when the first spenders are the people - as it was with the covid checks - they get the benefit, and the corporations pick up the tab. This is why congress, corporations, and the media absolutely raged about covid checks for years afterward.

The point

Your post

Are you a bot or did you just pick up on the buzzwords, or both?

Like no shit that inflation is exponential, my whole point was how UBI would insure inflation rates can never go into the negatives ever again, which is deletrious to anyone involved as it would create a permanent incentive to keep things as is else the UBI payment would be "lowered" if the inflation rates were to ever be reversed into the negatives (which is an absolute must if the economy is to imrpove), whoch the plebs who dont understand how currency really work will interpret it as.

Thus, without some free source of money

but the problem isn't money.

The problem is that AI is making the marketplace more competitive, that's why people are out of work. And UBI, I think, will accelerate that issue.

How does more money solve the problem that there's not enough work in the economy to employ enough people? Where does all the excess money go? (Assuming it's debt financed)

you would be less dependent with UBI. right now your goverment pays you with services you cant deny. UBI is defunding the goverment.

If you believe it's a problem that dollars are circulating globally, then I suppose they could be a way to work on that. Some would argue that if other countries are willing to trade you real goods for securities, then you're winning that trade.

I agree, UBI would be the greatest guarantee of total government control ever designed.

I think if you look at the levels of private household debt and the effects that a supplementary source of income could have on demand for consumer credit moving forward, I am not so sure UBI would be as inflationary as you seem to think.

Some would argue that if other countries are willing to trade you real goods for securities, then you're winning that trade.

correct. but the issue was that the government thought that Asian(China) were doing that in a way to manipulate the market and then use the US dollars they acquired to purchase things in America at an unequal rate.

we would trade them dollars for goods, but at a rate such that they could then trade dollars for more of our own goods

(Assuming it's debt financed)

It absolutely must not be debt financed. For all this to work money has to be issued by the debt free. No economic system predicated on debt money can operate stably.

The problem is that AI is making the marketplace more competitive, that's why people are out of work. And UBI, I think, will accelerate that issue.

And why is it more competitive? Because there are fewer jobs. If there were more jobs, it wouldn't be more competitive.

How does more money solve the problem that there's not enough work in the economy to employ enough people?

Because without it, the unemployed people can't buy anything/participate in the economy. If (to take it to an extreme for sake of illustration) robots/AI do all the work, who buy's there products? All zero employed people? Now back off on the automation a bit. Who buys all the products made by robots and one employee? All the remaining people with no money? Who buys the products made by robots and just 10 employees?

Tech makes work obsolete; debt free money, generally distributed is a mechanism to let everyone participate in the automated abundance. If there's less automation/efficiency, you back off on the free money, because now you need people to legitimately earn it through productive labor.

shill 13 pbtid

Central Bank has unlimited money

checked, (You) have Absolutely ZERO comprehension of How money is created.
Go back upthread and watch '97% Owned'

Do (You) know what a central bank even is?
It is a private owned entity that uses the world's top investment banks as its Primary Dealers.
Wall Street banks. These are privately owned. They are not "the government"
in fact they rely on the quasi-governmental entity known as a central bank to lend/'print' more of their currency into existence, so that **(You)** owe them for it. Yes (You) are a slave to the global investment banks (acting through their proxies the sovereign central banks)

See post ^above on the debt market
When (You)r central bank "creates" money, the Treasury of (You)r country must issue a corresponding Bond for each one of those money denomination units (dollar, yuan, pound, whatever) that was "printed" into existence as 'money'. The issued bond has to be sold
This is debt note fiat currency. It isn't solely and only 'fiat currency' it is *****DEBT NOTE***** fiat currency. That means each individual denomination of it that is created, every single cent, has a corresponding cent of *****DEBT***** that is issued, and must be sold on the debt (bond) market.

$1B 'money' = $1B treasury bonds also issued *and need to be sold*
That is how it works.

(You) need to Learn
What money is
to even begin discussing these topics.
(You) do not comprehend or understand, what 'money' even is, let alone how it is created

This is right? Like your job? Keep it, but that UBI check into savings/investements/whatever. Think of it as a free raise. If anything, your job security and bargaining power against your employer increase as other people walk off the job to live on UBI.

*That is right!

But when the first spenders are the people - as it was with the covid checks - they get the benefit

Aaaaand then your government is in a massive deficit and has to borrow a shit ton more money next year which triples the national debt which causes everyone's dollar to be worth 1/2 what it was before and anyone that has savings or is in a job without any inflation adjustment ends up getting poorer.

It's pretty funny how often midwits assume that technological progress will mean all the jobs transition into mass unemployment. That's the assumption of the small-minded, always has been, since the French workers threw their sabot into the new machines and before.
What people will do for work in the future are things you can't even imagine, the way someone streaming react content from their bedroom for a living was something unimaginable even to your grandparents. 1000 years ago 90% of the global population farmed all day. Technological progress didn't turn them into 85% unemployed people.

UBI for those who are willing to trade any semblance of freedom they once had. You think they'll just handout gibs so people can sit at home all day and shove dragon dildos up their asses, without a major catch? Lmfao.

If this were true, corporations would turn down government grants/corporate welfare/etc. After all, wouldn't the inflation negate their gains?

Inflation transfers wealth to from those who spend the new money earlier to those who spend it later. Regular citizens got the covid checks first; the corporations got it later (after the people spent it). The checks represent a net transfer of wealth to the people from corporations.

everyone gets extra money while no new products and services are being created, what could go wrong!

Like I said, I was under the impression the problem the US had was that it felt Asian countries keep their currencies low to support their own exports. So obviously buying US debt would support that end (but again, bond sales are a policy choice, so...), but I'm not sure if you're saying the problem is what they are specifically purchasing? If there are things that they are buying that is unwanted, that's something on the other end that has to be worked out.

UBI for those who are willing to trade any semblance of freedom they once had.

You're describing employment. As I said earlier, UBI does nothing to make you more dependent. Like your job? Keep it. With others walking away to live on UBI, your bargaining power and job security only increase. You can only become dependent if you live beyond your means, but that's true of regular employment as well.

Besides, Universal means universal, not "just some people who meet government criteria". If you tack that on, you aren't really talking about UBI anymore and it's a moot point.

Again, why don't corporations adopt this logic?

it stopped being a problem

kek
rotflmao
No, it just caused the citizens of the U.K. to now be **even more** indebted to their central bank,
than they were before all the issued bonds weren't properly bought at auction (as they should have been).
Look at Japan, the Bank of Japan owns most of their bond market
youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY

It absolutely must not be debt financed.

I don't think there's anyway in the world for that to be possible. I don't know how it can give people more money than they already have access to without being debt financed?

And why is it more competitive? Because there are fewer jobs. If there were more jobs, it wouldn't be more competitive.

I think you have it backwards. it's more competitive therefor there are fewer jobs. If Ai is infinitely increasing the necessary IQ(just as an example) to do a job, then that's what's causing the number of jobs to decrease. It's not like working as a farmer is regulated like the NBA.

Who buys all the products made by robots and one employee?

the person working at the other company that has one employee and a bunch of robots? Unless the example company of one person and robots produces literally everything the entire economy needs.(that's a long ways away. not even sure that's physically possible).

If (to take it to an extreme for sake of illustration) robots/AI do all the work, who buy's there products?

no one would buy anything because you'd make your own robots make it? Maybe by the time the world needs UBI, the point of money is already obsolete?

Tech makes work obsolete

it closes one door and opens another. more technology = more interactions with other technology = more needs for those interactions to be managed = jobs.

If there's less automation/efficiency, you back off on the free money, because now you need people to legitimately earn it through productive labor.

And I have no idea how you would calculate that in a way that makes any sense and isn't completely arbitrary?

I don't think there's anyway in the world for that to be possible. I don't know how it can give people more money than they already have access to without being debt financed?

Direct monetization. Created as reserves, not as bond issuance. Bear in mind, this is still debt -- it's just not interest bearing.

I was under the impression the problem the US had was that it felt Asian countries keep their currencies low to support their own exports

which they would use to acquire US dollars at a rate you couldn't do in the US, then buy US assets at the same rate a US citizen buys US assets(or even assets in other countries because it's the reserve currency)

If there are things that they are buying that is unwanted, that's something on the other end that has to be worked out.

But you would essentially have to coordinate with every other country to blockade China.

those are the options, complain to them diplomatically, restrict their access to US dollars, or restrict their access to the world market. each one being more extreme. Trump's tariffs are step 2.

You forgot the part where corporations adjust to maintain their margins. People got a one time payment and no wage increases (unless you work for the government) while inflation stayed around forever and corpos adjusted for it. Also the people who got this new wealth spent it on consumables, every single dollar ended up in the hands of the corpo who bought assets with it.

The cantillon effect you're talking about is describing people who are constantly on the government dole so they are protected from inflation.

Get a mortgage and you have a place retard

your bargaining power and job security only increase

I don't think that's true. Automation takes that away. You can think of automation as making every job require more IQ to be employed. As the average level of IQ keeps going up because of automation, your job security only goes down because some day you will not have the required IQ to be employed. In the world that UBI attempts to solve, there is no other option than sitting at home unless you have a 4 digit IQ.

Now explain us why the institution that provides it should not be seen as your Owner.

I don't think there's anyway in the world for that to be possible. I don't know how it can give people more money than they already have access to without being debt financed?

If you can't even imagine how money can exist without debt there's no hope for you. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm serious. You just print it; it represents an abstract unit value of the entire economy. There's no requirement for some equivalent amount to be paid back. Think of it like a plane ticket - do airlines "borrow" the tickets they print from a bank? The US basically did this with greenbacks during the civil war. It isn't even a hypothetical idea. Of course, then we let the banks take back over.

it closes one door and opens another. more technology = more interactions with other technology = more needs for those interactions to be managed = jobs

You're really stuck on this. It's impossible for tech, no matter how advanced, to always give rise to the need for more labor. Humans have basic *needs* - food, water, clothing shelter, medicine, etc. These needs have a ceiling - a person can only eat so much in their lifespan. Once these are met efficiently enough, there is no *need* for labor beyond that. If needs are *finite* but efficiency is *ever increasing* then labor eventually becomes zero, or at least negligible.

And I have no idea how you would calculate that in a way that makes any sense and isn't completely arbitrary?

Personal incredulity fallacy.

Anybody runs on UBI, I back them

Become totally dependant on the state, goys

Because not everyone gets free money when corpos do it? In order for money to have value, some one has to have it and some one has to not have it. Why would anyone work for something they already have?

This is a pretty simple concept.

Bear in mind, this is still debt -- it's just not interest bearing.

yes, geometric growth isn't as bad as compounding growth, but I don't think it solves the problem, just kicks the can much further down the road.

Sure, ok. The gibs will only be approved for bug butter, factory lab grown protein substitute, roach milk and the like. It won't be enough to own personal transportation. Mass transit and walking will be your options. Also the UBI vouchers are only accepted for certain areas of the city in the pod section.

That's what you'll end up with.
Now I've actually talked myself into all of that for you.

Satan 39 pbtid

corporations would turn down government grants

Right now, May 2025 corporate bond defaults are rising. Lenders are rolling over the debt (instead of taking losses), ^^^^see my previous posts itt
The whole system is not just based on Debt, it is based on *speculative debt instrument leveraging*, debt. Think back to the 2008 mortgage backed securities collapse. Yes, all forms of equities and assets are now structured like this. Even supposedly straightforward and 'simple' things (you get from your local community bank down the street) like a mortgage, are not 'just a loan'. All of these assets are multi-dimensionally *leveraged* and tied into other speculative instruments. That is post-1970s Financialization of the global economy, now on steroids. All of these governments, corporations, their assets, bonds and debts are exposed in myriad ways to derivatives and speculative instruments that can implode or be removed at a hair trigger. All of it, at the end of the chain, owed back to the banks which claim final asset sovereignty
Another aspect of this vast dysfunctional system, is that it cannot survive *except by expansion* of taking on and creating More Debt. That is the only 'forward motion' that keeps it from imploding, this is one reason why the ever-growing tandem advance of fiscal(gov spending) and monetary(Treasury+central bank money creation) must continue, because the whole global system collapses if it does not do so.
All based on refinancing and rolling over, rather than repayment. Entire governments 'think' and forecast, plan their future outlays in this manner (see the clip posted upthread)

shillbot 40 pbtid

how money can exist without debt

Get rid of central banks issuing debt note fiat currency.

Whose money are we stealing? How? What’s my cut?

Whose money

checked,
the Banks' money. They own it and (You)

You will own nothing and you'll be happy

Isn't that what you're saying, globalhomo..

I want a nigger to gouge your eye out
Banks created the mess we are in with fiat currency Social Credit is the ultimate Orwellian nightmare watch Brazil read The Trial once you have a big enough bureaucracy a persons life can be shattered with the push of a button and I know you think it won’t be you because you are arrogant.
Their problem is big governments are ridgid free markets are dynamic and flexible. Never trust the experts they are the most bribable

You just print it; it represents an abstract unit value of the entire economy.

It's you who doesn't understand, for that money to have any value, some one, some thing, has to work for it in the future when you go to spend it. And if this something works for free then why even bother with money?

Money is debt, inherently it's debt because some one has to work to 'pay back' the value it represents, otherwise it is worthless. Until your magic utopia of robots working for free comes to fruition, this something that has to work for this debt is future you and your children.

You forgot the part where corporations adjust to maintain their margins

But this didn't happen right away; increases happened well after. Remember corporations can't - and didn't - act immediately, even if they want to, because some competition still exists. Bump too fast and the new money goes to a competitor.

Also the people who got this new wealth spent it on consumables

You can't ascribe the individual spending decisions to monetary policy. If those people had gotten raises at work, they'd have done the same thing. Those who spent it on assets got richer. And the majority didn't spend it on consumables, the majority, I believe, went to servicing debt which is a liability reduction which is a net gain to wealth.

every single dollar ended up in the hands of the corpo who bought assets with it.

Yes, they were secondary spenders; wealth was transferred to the earlier spenders, the people. Why do you think corporations railed against it so hard? Why do you think congress hated it? If you were correct, they all would have supported it and disbursed even more!

No, I mean if there are things you don't want Asian countries buying -- just don't let them buy them? Does this make sense?

You're saying that they sell the US useful goods and services, through which they acquire foreign currency reserves. And then they buy things priced in that foreign currency (in this case, US dollars). That is generally how trade works, but you seem to be saying that the issue is the specific things they are buying -- to which I am saying that is something that can't be worked out on the buyer end.

I don't think that's true. Automation takes that away. You can think of automation as making every job require more IQ to be employed.

Ah, so now you're arguing that automation reduces employment? What happened to all the jobs with the lower IQ requirements? They're gone. Not just moved, gone.

you who doesn't understand

Anon, he doesn't comprehend how money is created. Or what it even is to begin with
( everyone itt : Watch '97% Owned' posted ^^^^^^ )

But corporations didn't get covid checks, only individual/families. You're applying the (valid) logic of how inflation works inconsistently. When corpos get the money first it benefits them at the expense of others. When oligarchs get the money first, it benefits them at the expense of others. When individuals and families get the money first, it benefits them at the expense of others.

There's no requirement for some equivalent amount to be paid back.

then why does it matter if it's debt financed?(debt we are never going to payback anyways, MMT)

the question is, how does it give more purchasing power to individuals if it's not debt financed? If we are not artificially tipping the scales(debt) how will it give more money to citizens? if they are receiving $100 from the government and paying back $100 how are they benefiting?

It's impossible for tech, no matter how advanced, to always give rise to the need for more labor.

I agree, I think 1: UBI doesn't solve that problem, 2: we aren't even close to that.

Humans have basic *needs* - food, water, clothing shelter, medicine, etc. These needs have a ceiling

the bigger one is time. and that's actually what UBI i think is attempting to solve.

I think my issue is that UBI is that it solves the last 1% of the issue that automation creates. And I'm not sure we're close to there or that the last 1% will exist for any measurable length of time.

Personal incredulity fallacy.

amigo, i'm actually just asking

The gibs will only be approved for

Stopped reading. The U in UBI is (U)niversal. If you put conditions on it it isn't universal anymore, it's something else entirely. Call it "government approved good goy basic income" or whatever you want, but you're changing the premises, whether you mean to or not.

Yes! The is a basic premise and requirement for social credit.

Banks created the mess we are in with fiat currency Social Credit is the ultimate Orwellian nightmare watch Brazil read The Trial once you have a big enough bureaucracy a persons life can be shattered with the push of a button and I know you think it won’t be you because you are arrogant.

How? Social credit wants to abolish banks, especially central banks.

45 pbtid botshill

"Social credit" won't be needed if we get central banks off of our backs, we'll finally have a Real Economy that benefits the people instead of a Financialized racket that solely enriches the 0.0001%
(You) (especially) *need to watch* the 2 documentaries in my first post on thread

but you seem to be saying that the issue is the specific things they are buying

no, the issue is the rate at which they acquire US dollars.

corporations didn't get covid checks

No PPP loans were given out and later "forgiven?"

botshill 46 pbtid

if (You) are a flesh and blood human being, not a gpt, (You) need to watch the 2 documentaries in my first post on thread

However you'd like to fantasize it, feel free. But I'm telling you what you will actually get.

No one would refuse free money if given the opportunity despite the consequences because they would be caught in prisoners dilemma; 'everyone else is doing it so if we don't then we'll be worse off'.

The governments job is to think of the consequences and overcome peoples/corpos self centered thinking through policy. Giving free money to people without having them work for it would be disastrous.

I'm 100% for eliminating the central banks and ending the financialized economy. You are 100% correct about that.
The issue that arises (and this has happened to every country that tried to use metallic currency) is that when the economy is growing (real growth, not financialized GDP line go up nonsense) you need a proportionally larger amount of currency to allow for transactions. Could you run the whole, current economy on one silver dollar? Of course not. How about 50 silver dollars? Too few. So how many? It might be hard to calculate, but there *is* a correct number. But what happens when the economy grows more? Can you get twice as much silver? What about the fact that physical materials will always be anchored down due to their intrinsic, physical properties and relevant physical uses (engineering, etc.) Social credit is just a way to generate these abstract representations of the real economy, scaled to the real economy, and inject them in a fair and incorruptible way.

Yeah, and that benefitted them, right? But according to your inconsistent logic, that would immediately cause prices to rise and the corporations no reap no benefit at all!

but that's assuming a world where UBI is needed/exists. which I think is only the last couple of % of the problem. UBI in this case causing the competitiveness to accelerate to an unsustainable level.

automation makes the marketplace more competitive which i think will mean just more people have failing jobs and need to replace them much more often.

It literally led to instant inflation lmao.

47 pbtid

Go and watch the 2 documentaries in my first post on thread.
Removing private banks that create debt note fiat currency enslaving us all, solves all the issues of distribution and allow the Real Economy of goods-services-commodities to flourish along with creation and retention of value for individuals' work product (instead of having that pirated away by debt slavery)

GO AND WATCH THE 2 DOCUMENTARIES IN MY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD

And most of it led to the CEO's getting big fat ass raises and expensed work trips to tropical locales. I should know.

No one would refuse free money if given the opportunity despite the consequences because they would be caught in prisoners dilemma; 'everyone else is doing it so if we don't then we'll be worse off'.

Right, and they'd actually be better off. They were.

The governments job is to think of the consequences and overcome peoples/corpos self centered thinking through policy.

Ideally, sure, but in reality the government is basically a handmaiden to banks and corporations. Not to mention foreign countries with leverage over them like Israel.

Giving free money to people without having them work for it would be disastrous.

Ok, so why isn't it disastrous for corporations and oligarchs? Paying many people not to work would be one of the best things we could do. Currently, we instead employ thousands if not millions in fake work which *wastes even more resources*. And if these people are such useless retards, why try to involve them in real enterprises? Pay them their pittance to get the fuck out of the way and watch TV, and let the contributors make the real money. This only works of you stop mass migration of course, which we should absolutely do.

Could you run the whole, current economy on one silver dollar?

you theoretically can, that's why things like haypennies(half pennies) and quarter pennies were created. the exact amount of completely arbitrary denominations you trade for goods/services doesn't really matter. it's things like large inflation/deflation that are the problem because it makes it hard to trade for something that will be done tomorrow.

Ok, so when corporations get huge government checks, why doesn't it lead to instant inflation which invalidates their "gain". Again you're not applying logic consistently. With people, somehow there's instant inflation and everything is worse. With corporations, somehow assets don't inflate at all! It's magic!

It does lead to inflation, no one said it didn't Bud.

Ok, so when corporations get huge government checks, why doesn't it lead to instant inflation which invalidates their "gain".

because inflation is a trailing statistic. it takes time for the money to get out into the market during that time the person with all the extra money doesn't yet have to deal with inflation so they use it to acquire assets?

Why do you keep going around with circular logic? It is disastrous, inflation just keeps going up. What the fuck is a corpo supposed to do about it? What is an individual supposed to do about it? The only thing you can do is try to make more to keep up.

Are you a fucking bot?

The work isn't fake, its a result of human inefficiency, mistrust and small mindedness, but it is necessary for our control structures to function. And without control structures nothing gets done, the worker sits around waiting for some one to invent the UBI utopia and everyone starves.

the exact amount of completely arbitrary denominations you trade for goods/services doesn't really matter.

Sort of. You do have to *arbitrarily* changing the money supply to match the real economy. But something with real connection to a real value will always be tethered down to that value. Imagine if plane tickets had to be issued platinum instead of just being a fiat record and you might see the problem. Certain metals/physical backings can work with economies of a certain size. With too much growth it becomes unsustainable. Plus, the wealthy can buy up the physical goods to manipulate the market. This is literally the plot of Spice and Wolf.

Yes, all money printing leads to inflation. But that inflation transfers wealth from the first spenders from later spenders. With covid checks, ordinary people and families were the first spenders. Corporations were later spenders. Covid checks make people richer at the expense of corporations.

it takes time for the money to get out into the market during that time the person with all the extra money doesn't yet have to deal with inflation so they use it to acquire assets?

Exactly! And in the case of the covid checks, the first spenders were ordinary people and families - the people who first received the new money. They the got to buy at immediate prices. Corporations - who got the money later *by definition* had to buy at the higher prices.

you niggers are fucking delusional

who got the money later *by definition* had to buy at the higher prices

then why did wages decrease?

Money is irrelevant. It could be money, gold, crypto, pearls, whatever.
What you are talking about is how to distribute wealth, or value between people. Some of them are creating value, some of them don't.
You have to take value from the first ones with violence to give it to the others based on whatever ideology and whatever logic.
This is all there is.
You have to come up with a good idea about:

Who should decide how much value should be distributed

How can you incentivize the people doing useful stuff to continue doing it

How can you help the other people to cope with the fact they are just useless cattle fed like pets out of pure mercy

You're a boomer. Loads of work is fake. You really think the thousands upon thousands of college administrators, DEI positions, middle managers, consultants, etc. etc. etc. are actually creating value?

then why did wages decrease?

Mass migration
Mass outsourcing
AI
Continued improvements in robotics and automation
Increased corporate consolidation/competition loss/oligopolies
Fed rate hike (results in layoffs, startups going under, fewer new companies)

i'm not sure trading a 1 time purchase for several years of inflation being higher than wage growth is worth it. maybe you do

I'm 35, I've literally skipped ordering lunch with my coworkers because everyone was waiting for some one else to take the lead and tell them what to do or to drive the group consensus on where to order from. People without leadership are fucking useless.

The work looks fake to you because you're not observant enough to see how much bullshit people get up to when no one holds them accountable or gives them boundaries. As long as you have human workers it will be necessary to have 'fake' administrative jobs that deal with their human bullshit.

If it didn't corporations would turn down free money. Would "one time" purchases be worth the later high prices? Again, you have to apply logic consistently.

No, work looks fake because it's fake. Sure, you can have a job that might appear fake to a layman, but in reality not be. But that doesn't disprove the existence of bullshit jobs. Notably, you didn't address any of the categories I mentioned. Because you can't. Nobody can. They're fake. All the USAID cuts are perfect examples.

We already argued this kike, it doesn't matter what the consequence is, no one would turn down free money. It's the governments job not to give it out.

It's the governments job not to give it out.

Is it, though? As an origin point for money, they have to give it out.

What if I just didn't want to pay for your shit? How about that?

Just come out and say it.

I want free money and don't want to work

You will live in the pod and eat the bug paste, that's the UBI govt will gleefully provide you. That's what this plebbit tier fantasy will yield. Oh just imagine the endless time to "create." Which translates into constant VR masturbation and or gay sex. Sex leading to procreation will be a disqualification for the UBI services.
The rest of us can only hope that the pod-scrapers will be walled off from the rest of society.

Those fake jobs make some one feel better, and that's the key. Humans feel and they need their bullshit feelings handled. A managers job is literally dealing with feelings. HR's job is to protect the company and deal with peoples personal bullshit. You need an army of cleaners because people shit up the place. Like I said, these jobs are due to human inefficiency, mistrust etc etc. They are necessary as long as people exist.

Even if people were paid to sit on their asses and do nothing, you'd then need to employ 100x more people to enforce the law because people sitting around would get up to so much bullshit.

no one would turn down free money

Yes, but why? Because it's the optimal choice. It brings you benefit. It makes you *wealthier* Covid checks took wealth from the corporations and gave it too the people.

It's the governments job not to give it out.

Actually it is supposed to be exactly their job. The constitution clearly gives the government the sole right to issue currency. Where else do you want it to come from? Private banks??

Lol exactly.

You keep going around in fucking circles while arguing nothing. It's literally hitlers description of a jew down to a T.

Yes, but why?

For the same reason a little kid will continue to shovel candies into their gullet until their sick, if an adult doesn't correct them. Because they're too fuckin stupid to know any better.

I want free money

As opposed to what, money I worked for? If I get got more with less effort, that's called "winning". If I can get more with no effort, such much the better! What, do you think I should prefer harder to earn money instead? You could always burn some of your paycheck each month!

and I don't want to work

Yes, work is a means to an end. If you can avoid it or minimize it with the same result, that's called "efficiency". Why do you think man developed technology and science? To work longer and harder for the same results?

So what's your opinion, people should want more work and for things to be harder and harder to earn? Are you insane?

Where else do you want it to come from? Private banks??

I think that is exactly where most of the do want it to come from. I am not sure what other conclusion can be drawn.

In our system there are two origin points for tax credits (currency): the government and private banks. If the government reverses the flow of tax credits through decreased spending or increased taxation or both, then the only place for the private sector to get tax credits from is previous savings or private banks.

Or how a dog will keep eating if you give them food. Or how an alcoholic will keep drinking if you give them booze, or a drug addict....

Haha read that Bullshit Jobs book. Fake work has exactly the opposite effect. In fact, it's even used as a form of torture.

You're the perfect mental slave who has learned to love their chains.

No, you are the one going in circles, constantly changing the way you want inflation to magically work.

I don't know what you get out of this, you must be getting paid by israel.

government and private banks

Wrong. All our currency is issued by the Federal Reserve, a private bank.

I think that is exactly where most of the do want it to come from. I am not sure what other conclusion can be drawn.

So you're an apologist for the banks. Case closed.

Anyone who doesn't want to work a fake job for goybucks is an Israeli shill! We need to wage harder.

Lol

Odd that you don't characterize the corporations, who get infinitely more free money from the government this way...

corpos get free money

Well that's just the way it is

people get free money

Drug addicts! Dogs!

Yeah, hopefully all those pet videos taught ai the joy in caring for retarded animals