Pentagon cancels tons of vehicles

Fucking boomers in charge are trying to fight the last war when $5k drones are making our carriers do fucking evasive maneuvers expending millions of dollars of munitions to defend and losing a fucking super hornet in the process.

tanks are obsolete not so much because of drones but because this round of armor x firepower has been won by firepower

there is no armor that protects against latest sabot, whoever fires first wins
in such an environment lighter and cheaper tank destroyers make more sense than tanks

it only makes sense to have heavy armor if it actually protects against something, all other threats are adequately countered by APS and ERA and do not need heavy armor

The Army should focus on building a more robust “do it all” tank because most tanks now are used as assault guns for infantry assaults.

They need to design every heavy vehicle with flak guns on top, modified shotguns on racks than fire specialized anti-drone shells. Design vehicles like Naval destroyers.

you may not like it, but mopeds are the assault vehicle of the future

looney tunes army lmao

based Hegseth cleaning house

The future is sending endless waves of cheap drones to clear out any military units. Essentially keep saturating the area with drones until everything is destroyed and dead, then roll in.

It's the next stage of how air superiority essentially wins over anything, except even better. Drones are cheap, can get in virtually anywhere and can hunt down humans. They can even zip around armored units and find a vulnerable spot. Eventually also these won't need human operators and will just be programmed to do all that by themselves. All you'll have to do is designate a zone on the map to deploy them, and everything will be sanitized. You can keep doing this zone by zone and eventually clear out anything you need to clear out.

If you try to counter with jamming, you can deploy faster drones to locate the source of the jamming and strike that with long range attacks, then roll in the drones.

This is so stupid I wouldn't believe it if not for the Globohomo flag

light tanks

light

Here's your answer

anti semitism has been on the rise in the army the past few years

They'll redirect it to anti-air equipment in light of the Pakistan vs India scuffle of yesterday
Also fuck light tanks, all my niggas into heavy tanks. Maus or bust

there is no armor that protects against latest sabot

Tank on tank battles aren't really occuring on the modern battlefield.

and why is that, genius?
try to use your brain for one second of your life

Tank on tank battles aren't really occuring on the modern battlefield.

There are hundreds of videos of tank vs tank battles in Ukraine War. Having a tank is still an advantage over not having one, even with all the drones

do you not know what a light tank is?
they are doubling down on heavy MBT's instead of lighter vehicles

quads and hovercraft are the way ahead, fast multi terrain vehicles rather than tanks

the abrams x is literally fucking NOTHING
its an unsolicited tank built by general dynamics to convince some MIC faggot or some congress faggot to buy it, and nothing more

the abramsX was at no point ever comissioned, developed or asked for by any US military branch
its completely and 100% on the dime of GE for that one, and it will never be built

You're the one who claimed sabot round effectiveness is an argument which simply isn't the case.
Why tank on tank battles don't happen is a different discussion

They'd be better off ordering drones to fight people, drones to fight vehicles, drones to fight drones, drones that fight the drones that fight drones, drones to fix drones, drones to rescue drones, drones to lecture other drones on race relations and drones to supply all the aforementioned drones. Everything else is a waste. As an aside I just solved the recruiting crisis.

low IQ nigger

the drone party is extremely temporary
drones are doing well right now because they simply exists in an aerial weight category that the older cold war style weapons are not built for and are not particularly ineffective against

the problem is one of size and not one of principle, as soon as there is a radar/lidar guided anti-drone gun fielded the party is OVER

There is going to be money spent on small drone point defense systems to target and collide with incoming "cheap" combat drone spam.
There is going to be money spent on small light armor vehicles that have 30-50Kw laser systems that act as layered defense for conventional assault armor.
There is going to be money spent on small infantry tactics including dedicated portable re-usable drone for offensive use.
There is going to be money spent on same type of drone swarms that loiter around attack helicopters and engage/collide with incoming drones/lower speed missiles.
There is going to be money spent on automating/remote control of old surplus armor ( think M60 tanks that are remote controlled ) to be used as remotely controlled minesweepers/assault guns that are designed to increase the capabilities of current tank battalions and reduce the risk of modern army inventories.
There is going to be money spent on a new type of infantry that can move rapidly using directional jet-packs, it will at first be integrated into mountain units and marines in sea boarding operations but it will become ubiquitous for infantry at a point sooner than people realize.

These are the reason all these new conventional vehicle projects are being cancelled, tons of money is being poured into survive-ability and improvements/refinements on armament of existing units in the military

no u

kek

the mobile infantry concept is 50 years old by now
time to make it a reality

simply exists in an aerial weight category

Drones to drone the guy who doesn't stop to think about the dog sized land based drones for the army. Forgot those. Gonna need em to pull the drone sleds in New New York (formerly Greenland).

These are shockingly good decisions

m10 booker

The “it’s not a tank” light tank that costs more than a main battle tank

Stryker

The “it’s not an IFV” IFV that can’t survive anything heavier than a 50 cal and costs more than an IFV

Apache

Attack helos are worthless now

JLTV

Another utility truck that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, just buy pickup trucks

AMPV

no idea what this is

sorry, I can't hear y'all over the sound of my obvious tactical superiority

The problem is that you can’t mass combat power for breakthrough offensives because everything is observed by both sides. It’s not a tank specific problem. A self propelled armored pillbox with a huge gun will always be useful

here's why

I block news sources that use that kabbalah magic news speak.

I can't wait for that tax cut.

in a real war you shoot down the surveillance, genius

AMPV

no idea what this is

Basically a Bradley that isn't a Bradley

Tanks are not as good anymore when ROI on drones and rockets is x100 higher

light tanks in 2025

We need a boondoggle that is even more useless than what we already have.

It is a real war
You’re literally retarded

you can’t mass combat power

lesson learned in theory the 50s with the advent of tac nukes
promptly (natch) forgotten and now revived because of drones of all things

i think everyone is realizing we need to focus on drone supremecy over everything else. air land and sea drones. space drones. nano drones. tunneling drones

Ambramx

Seems a rip off of the Armata

it is a real war

no it's a limited war.

This is a strategic error, but you're right that this is what the western miltaries think right now. in practice the real lesson from the last few years should be that air defense is king and we are woefully behind in that category.

hurr attrition warfare durr

asymmetry is the correct answer

You spam 200 $50 drones to crash into their drones and then you kill their drone operators with your tank.

all land war is attrition warfare to some degree or another

This has been true for the entire existence of a tank. They could be killed by artillery, towed field guns, and cheaper tank destroyers, and land mines in ww2

Except when it’s maneuver

heavy armor is useless
but big guns are always useful
logical conclusion: light tanks

except when you don't have a real opponent

the us military doctrine handbooks have been completely exposed as retarded. please stop.

Artillery is still king and we don’t have enough. M777 is overpriced and no better than any other towed piece except it’s light enough to be airlifted onto impassable mountain terrain. But then it is stuck once you put it there

That has nothing to do with what I said and you are literally retarded

the Stryker program

they cancled strykers? wtf why?
are they phasing them out completely or will the ones in service remain in use?

gun + camera + machine learning targeting (select all squares with drones)
there's the drone revolution
the fact that both kinds of russians are too retarded to come up with this is funny

it has everything to do with what you said. you are just not qualified for such discussions.

Drones and rockets don't conquer territory. Neither do jets and artillery shells. If they only possessed those things and ignored the rest, the military would have a massive capabilities gap. For as useless as a tank and apc seems, they're still the best way to assault. The light tank is questionable, and it's probably just a result of military industrial complex kick backs.

I don’t think they can just cancel the whole thing. There’s a bunch of brigades already existing. It’s a joke though. Totally worthless

massive lithium battery

in a tank

Human MRE. Just add shockwave and cook.

I am infinitely more qualified than you in every way. Your statements are all nonsensical

The hardware may be fine. What needs to be cancelled is the entire way of contracting, building, etc. Sometimes that necessitates ending contracts for decent hardware.

wasn't it nepotism that got it in the US army in the first place?

I am only partially retarded

okay
the answer to drones, my cognitively-challenged cousin, is not more drones
-better air defense
-better area denial (smart minefields etc)
-more lethality for the individual soldier
-dispersal
-flexible defense
-distributed attack

I don’t think so. It was general shinseki’s pet project.

light tanks are clearly obsolete in modern war. For 2/3 the price of an MBT(at best) you get a vehicle which is not much faster to deploy, less flexible, less survivable and with less firepower. It's a boondoggle and well canceled.

A lot of these vehicles are just drone fodder now.

It’s more expensive actually. Because America

Preparing for the next war with the lessons learned from the last war

Last war and next war are entirely different

It's a never ending cycle of waste

You're the dumbass who started with the assumption that this is a "real war." Possibly you believe that but if so I think the day that real war comes will be very hard for you. The engagement is limited and that is OUT IN THE OPEN. It's not a secret. It's also not a secret that your opponent has capabilities that would dramatically alter the ISR reality. You clearly learned from NATO and that is why you are both overconfident and wrong.

its because we have lasers and time travel

This question is very anti-Semitic. How dare you.

the "answer" to drones is to destroy the manufacturing of them as well as the operators. welcome back to attrition warfare. what prevents your opponent from doing so?

strykers were very high maintenance from what I've read. The APC variants were okay at their job, but the 1128 tank destroyer type was not and had big issues with being top heavy and simply a poor platform for its gun. Also they didn't do well in ukraine, doesn't help.

They should focus more on making the navy unassailable

the "answer" to drones is to destroy the manufacturing of them

Lol

war is easy. Just destroy your enemy’s entire manufacturing capacity. Duh

I mean yeah, it's a new program so per unit cost will be higher. Which is another reason to drop it. In theory it should cost less and it's certainly not as useful as an MBT. The only advantage was that you were supposed to be able to load two into a C-17 at a time but it may have gotten too fat to do that, another strike.

both the manufacturing and the operation can be dispersed to a very large extent
did you get dropped on your head at a young age?

Yeah, if the Pentagon has any brains, they'll spend on drone warfare instead

M8 AGS could be deployed by Chinook or C130
I still don't know why that thing never got approved
now you are eyeing the german wiesel for the same job even though it's arguably not as good as the M8
US procurement is a joke

wiesel would be a good transitional vehicle until proper mechsuits are developed

just destroy your enemy's entire manufacturing capacity

Yes, it's a classic move. What prevents your opponent from doing so, friend?

can be dispersed to a very large extent

ok, now what prevents your opponent from reaching those distant locations?

US military obsession with “deploying in X hours using Y aircraft” is peak retard. How about you just rent a couple big ass boats, load them up with all the shit you need, and take a few more months to win the war instead of getting there next week and losing.

there are a few answers to drones
have a full rotation of loitering drones in the skies at all times ready to kamikaze into enemy drones, sell the enemy drone software with a backdoor, use ground based AI powered motion tracking lasers to zap enemy drones out of the sky, or signal jammers and shotguns but it’s not as effective

What prevents them from destroying yours?

Ah fuck I understand it but fuck the m10 booker was a good idea, they shouldnt have cancelled it they should have redeveloped it as a cheaper platform, the US has needed new armor for a long time, the abrams was dogshit in the 90s and it's dogshit now, but I understand it at least because of all the bloat the military industrial complex added

This. Now it doesn't matter if your car is heavy armoured or no.

Russiam tried mopeds, bikes, cheap buggy.

Later they tried stolen American tanks and armoured car.
Not much difference at all. They still explode in 1 hit.

distant

you really are retarded
drone assembly line fits in a semi-container, can be deployed in a fucking frontline trench
fucking retard
try they love retards there

abrams is obsolete in terms of its design, it was always designed to sit in west germany and wait for soviets to advance into them, it has shit fuel economy because of this, it's only intended to maneuver in short range combat

the design is completely incompatible with modern US wars around the globe

you need a modern sherman, a lighter tank that can drive long distances and be transported all around the globe in larger numbers

because then the enemy has months to prepare, I hope you see the problem

Electric kind of makes sense for tanks because it's high torque and better on supply chains, it's the hybrid part that's maybe counterproductive but will be because a general saw a small range number and got angry, when really the entire doctrine of GO FAST has been retarded since the late 1800s, but we cling to horse cavalry ideas for some reason

a entirely dead professional army

the complete inability to win a war against the vast might of …’ukraine’.

…copies that?

I think it’s probably more to do with advancements in other fields. Like maybe drone swarms perhaps? I don’t know exactly what but if you are working on something which makes tanks virtually obsolete you wouldn’t also want to work on tanks.
Or it could be that the war you are preparing for, against globo and it’s front bums like chingchong pong requires some other type of material developing. Like i dunno, a small-guy catching net for rounding up seething midgets in or something.
A billionaire seeking missile. That would be the good. Homes in on the heat signature of the nose.

M10 Booker weighs 42 tons and has 105 mm cannon and shit armor while weighing almost as much as T-90. It’s supposed to be a LIGHT tank.
Engineers who designed this should be taken out and shot.

Time is always on America’s side strategically. They can take however long to build up resources and then overwhelm you. The “gotta get there in 72 hours” thing is nonsense

Remains to be seen but it looks like they want to get rid of them entirely.
Will of course take a long time since so many exist

I heard some countries plan to create Tsar tanks, with anti drone turrets.

But it's expensive and useless.

Imho T series tanks are better.
Just out wooden/iron house on them and go.

I mean, the abrams weighs 70 tons and is supposed to be the gotta go fast tank (it was hated by soldiers because of ground pressure issues, but loved by officers who didnt use them) it was never ever good, military industrial complex bloat is insane currently

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_150_TAP

Based and orc-pilled

M10 Booger cencelled

Lol

Their air defense and your lesser capable missiles

I wonder if anti-aircraft weapons on partially powered electric carts like that would actually be really useful as a squad support weapon kek, especially if you could take it up stairs

Yes, you're going to build mass-quantities on the back of semi trucks to compete with real industrial production. You haven't thought this through at all.

ya'll can barely build carriers anymore because all ship construction expertise has moved to china and the remainer is being laid off to game the stock market
modern US culture is incompatible with production

then overwhelm you

overwhelm who?

yeah actually sounds great, squad level anti-drone AAA

carriers are just big fat targets. largely irrelevant in peer conflict. The Houthis are already at the level to defeat carriers.

you're going to have to pull even harder tricks
you're going to have to disperse ALL your industry and make most of it mobile, just like your troops
you will need strategic materials reserves and factories in near space
you will need to secure said resources and assets
shit's fucked retardbro

meant for

What you need is the ability to defend your space. Air defense is king right now.

Drones > tanks and other armored vehicles. Scooter warfare with buckshot AD is the future of mounted cavalry.

Drones made tanks obsolete

M10 Booker

Light tank for airborne divisions. What does an airborne division need a tank for? Fucking retarded in the age of man portable ATGM and drones. If I was in the Army, then no way would I want to be in one of those death traps.

HMMWV

That is the Humvee. It is being replaced.

AH64D

All of those attack helicopters are gone. The AH64E entered service 12 or so years ago to replace the D model.

AMPV

Crappy thing, not really an APC or an IFV. It really has no point.

Stryker

This is another thing that should not be. The US Army already has its Styker brigades. In fact, one of the 24th Infantry's styker brigade in Alaska was turned into an airborne brigade, when the 2 brigades in Alaska were renamed the 11th Airborne Division.

Eurotrash don't know this, but a real military upgrades equipment. Also many of the R&D projects are canceled due to not being needed or overbudget or whatever. Some R&D projects are done just to do those.

defemse doesn't win wars
mobile infantry will

It was also a lesson that stayed entirely in theory because playing the nuclear escalation game is a really, really fucking stupid idea.

most drones can't disable a tank for longer than a day or two. all of those ukrainian videos you see of tanks getting hit? those tanks are towed back to the yard and repaired within 36 hours.

mobile infantry will

well you're getting absolutely smoked in that category, too.

The main thing that prevents massing of troops is satellite surveillance. Satellites can be eliminated.

an MPFV by GDLS in LRIP for the IBCTs

Do Ameritards really?
Is this how you lose all your wars?

AH64 Ds

AH64E remains. Older version canceled.

kek

Which is also a stupid idea, unless you're comfortable with ending up in a potential scenario where it's effectively impossible to launch any spacecraft ever again.

no don't shoot down the satellite being used to do war against your country

the drone party is extremely temporary

drones are doing well right now because they simply exists in an aerial weight category that the older cold war style weapons are not built for and are not particularly ineffective against

the problem is one of size and not one of principle, as soon as there is a radar/lidar guided anti-drone gun fielded the party is OVER

you Anon Babbleike posters are such insufferable faggot niggers
the drones are here to stay forever

no don't shoot down the satellite being used to do war against your country

literally a nuclear scale provocation, and the debri would field would eventually make space completely useless

drones are here to stay but they're also not nearly as big of a deal as internet retards seem to think.

well, now there are cheap missiles and drones so the issue has reared its ugly head again - it is impossible to mass anything bigger than an infantry squad and not get immediately hit
a mobile infantry squad would offer better firepower and mobility than a platoon of Bradleys in a much more survivable package

nuclear scale provocation

and what is attempting to destroy another country? the other side has nuclear weapons, too. probably better ones and more effective. you still want to escalate because someone shot down your satellite?

debris field

manageable problem

it is impossible to mass anything bigger than an infantry squad and not get immediately hit

impossible

that word doesn't mean what you think it does

Biden's green sustainable military sounded good to some people. but even Greta Thunberg rejected Biden's invite to a pool party.

You'd think Nuclear powered electric tanks would strike fear into the hearts of our enemies, but intelligence reports from satellites monitoring the battlefield in ukraine suggest otherwise.
The M10 Booker conceived by Jimmy Carter, as the land version of his nuclear submarine, did not go as planned. The tank suffers overheating issues, which could result in premature melt-down before reaching the enemy.
some suggested parachuting them in, behind enemy lines, but we already have a weapons platform for that sort of thing, which renders the M10 booker obsolete.

What does an airborne division need a tank for?

what does anyone need a tank for?
a big fucking gun
they can't run around with peashooters and expect to survive
look at the vdv

A self propelled armored pillbox with a huge gun will always be useful

It's back,baby!

The “it’s not an IFV” IFV that can’t survive anything heavier than a 50 cal

Stryker has all around 14.5mm proof armor (14.5mm pens about 40mm RHA).
It's the same as first Bradley versions. Russian BMP1/BMP2 have 19mm sides.

Attack helos are worthless now

It's just older D cancelled, most recent AH-64E remains.

AMPV

no idea what this is

M113 replacement (used much as utility APCs) made from Bradley chassis, big, heavy and expensive but has Bradley's armor

Remember back when the developer behind World of Tanks was going to stump up the cash to get the Maus restored to running order, but someone at the museum had a massive fucking melty because "grrr German tank not patriotic!" and it ended up never going anywhere?

If offensive drone warfare becomes THAT effective then the defensive side will just spam EMPs because at that point it's worth the cost of losing their own electronics.
There's a hard ceiling on just *how* effective electronics can become before they simply become too effective and it becomes advantageous for one side to shut the door on them completely.

the seething about the ww2 german army will never cease to amaze
there are legitimate arguments being made now that the tiger wasn't a superior tank that regularly outgunned the soviets 10:1 because of exactly that attitude you describe

Really? But Bovington (museum) has a working Tiger I they take out every year and show off.

youtube.com/watch?v=S8Purxg7E14

híbrid-electric engine

So, the AbramsX is like a suicide drone, ready to blow up?

That was two way street, guns could kill tank but mostly with direct fire (Western front research of casualties 80% of tanks killed by direct fire artillery AP shells, while 90% of infantry were killed by inderect fire of artillery). If you are shooting at tank with direct fire tank can shoot back at you, it's two way street combat. Means that oldest tactics if massing and sending larger blob at enemy worked fine. Send 200 tanks against front covered by 20 AT guns and tanks roll over them easy peasy, and brake through front, yeah they would take casualties but front is broken.

Game changing meta is that now antitank weapons (drones) are inderect firepower. Never been that before. Indirect firepower kills tanks without taking casualties from tanks. Drone teams can kite and inflict casualties against tanks forever until no tanks left.

I don't understand why they haven't made mobile stations that launch dozens or hundreds of quadcopter drones fully automated.
You could make the platform a land drone ffs.
Roll in land drone with a full EW suite like jammers etc, it pops the top off and hundreds of quadcopters come out as a swarm.
Use some larger IR and FLIR drones to track all movements in a kill zone and the whole network could speak to the drone swarm, finding targets to swarm.
Hell, even a swarm of loitering drones the soldiers could call on as a form of automated air support...

Fug bros imagine being given a dirtbike and told to go ride through that minefield and try to dodge the artillery and drones while you're out there, good luck

They did lose the war, decisively.

Anyone else think that the WWI "Skeleton Tank" concept might make sense on the modern battlefield? The idea was that you'd get the cross country performance of a heavy tank, with the weight of a light tank, while providing a smaller target. The idea was that if a hit destroyed some of the structural pipes, the engine/fighting compartment would remain safe, and the pipes could be quickly replaced after the battle.

Imagine this in a WWIII context. Imagine a tank like this but also with cage armor around it. It would be very resistant to drone attacks. To get a hard kill you'd have to hit the engine/crew compartment. To get a mobility kill you'd have to hit the tracks. Anything else would just hit pipes.

Never been that before.

you really are stupid aren't you?

they fought the entire world combined to a standstill
just like russia is doing now btw

AH64 Ds

Kinda surprised, it seemed like a decent package.

M10 Booker

AMPVs

JLTVs

Deserved.

Stryker

They will never find a BTR copy they're happy with. They just can't accept soldiers can die in these transports and it can't be a bunker bus with enough firepower for anything.

HMMWVs

I'm surprised this shit was still on there.

to a standstill

is that why their opponent captured their capital and everything in between?

I should add that in WWI inderect firepower of artillery become main source of casualties (before it was 70-80% infantry rifles). And this created trench warfare and stalemate. Indirect artillery kills infantry without taking any casualties from infantry. To broke this stalemate tank was needed. Tank can't be killed effeciently by indirect artillery.

Today's crisis has same fingerprints. Indirect firepower (inderect is key word here) of drones now can kills everything including tanks and that destroys maneuvering warfare.

idiot

I wanna play Brigador again now.

I think people just need to accept tanks have a very narrow battlefield application now, and that’s okay. Tanks simply shouldn’t be used in many more scenarios now.

tanks were killed primarily by artillery back then, exactly as it is now
#1 tank killer is still artillery, not drones
nothing changed

what happened in ww1 is heavy machineguns prevented infantry advances, and tanks broke that stalemate

they actually have the broadest application yet, no longer confined to simply charge ahead in a line

you really are stupid aren't you?

No u. Read my post.

Western front research of casualties 80% of tanks killed by direct fire artillery AP shells

Never been in history of WWII and post warfare when inderect firepower could effectively kill tanks. It's absolutely meta changing development with drones. Just like modern artillery changed meta in WWI.
Overmatch of the indirect firepower over maneuver forces = stalemate and siege warfare.

The US Army was planning a new super-heavy tank. Ukraine changed all that

What US Army officials observed on Ukrainian battlefields convinced them they had to change the way they developed tanks. It seems they saw tanks struggling in mud and soft soil while getting overwhelmed by swarms of tiny explosive drones. They concluded that future versions of the M-1 must be better-protected and better-armed without also being heavier.

Last fall, the US Army abruptly canceled the M-1A2 SEP v4. “We must optimize the Abrams’ mobility and survivability to allow the tank to continue to close with and destroy the enemy as the apex predator on future battlefields,” stated Brigadier General Geoffrey Norman, director of the US Army’s future vehicle team.

The replacement tank model, the M-1E3, would weigh just 60 tons, carry a new main gun and be crewed by just three people instead of four, Norman said. In addition to “passive” armour, which absorbs and deflects incoming enemy fire, the new Abrams would feature “active protection” in the form of tiny radar-cued rockets that blast outward to intercept enemy fire – and should also work against inexpensive yet lethal drones.

telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/06/ukraine-war-us-army-abrams-tank-aps-armour-m1a2/

Some of the dumb old fucks in the military recall their days of doing X. Doing X might have been useful whenever, but not now.
About 30 years ago, the US Army has a light tank:M551 the Sheridan. That light tank was actually a light tank, and it might have made sense back then. The US Army got rid of the M551 in the mid 90s. Sometimes the old fucks like to talk about infantry units having light tank support within the light infantry units.
This might have been useful a long time ago, but not now. The US Military has a lot of man portable weapons infantry support systems comparable to a light tank gun. The US Military also has more aircraft than the next 10 militaries combined.
BTW, some people think the US Military is like some well managed organization ,which has coordination and similar thought/ ideology. It is not. The US Military has lots of departments where different officers have vastly different thoughts on wars and equipment. These departments often have their own R&D budgets and don't know what is going on within the other areas. The US Congress is also filled with idiots, so they fuck things up too.
A 40 ton tank with a 105mm main tank gun... gee that sounds kinda like the M60. A 40 ton tank is also not really light. It also does not have any more capabilities than what is currently in service.

good to see the US learning

a stalemate is when you sign unconditional capitulation and commit suicide

Explicitly state that application.

Hardmode: something else can’t be better at it
Harder mode: a collective of strategies can’t be better at a collective of applications.

Tanks try to do too much at once.

In the near future war will be fought with analog and mechanical systems, since EMP will be so common place, and it will be glorious.

tanks were killed primarily by artillery back then,

By direct fire of guns, when you shot from like 1000m range and tank sees you and can shoot you back. Towed AT guns, tank guns etc (research wise it was impossible to differentiate their AP shells).

Indirect fire or artillery contributed negligible amount of destroyed tanks during WWII times

German autistic faggoty. Meanwhile, 300 Shermans already went around it to cut it off and B-25 are bombing it to shit, because it can only go 10 MPH.
Germans are retarded.

sheridan is probably the only reason you didn't lose vietnam even harder than you already did
there was constant talk of finding a replacement but nothing ever appeared due to incompetence
US light infantry suffers heavy casualities and embarassment like black hawk down incident without heavy fire support
finally stryker is procured but it's a piece of shit

Go on. Do some digital war crimes. You've earned it.
youtube.com/watch?v=JQPEH2Thk2U

Wtf is going on

Everyone is mad at the jews, a black rapper brought back National Socialism and WWIII has been canceled. Busy week.

no, by artillery

M8 AGS

Stryker MGS

M10 Booker

The army really needs to stop designing the same fucking thing again and again just to abandon it. Either use a light tank or don't use a light tank, but there's no reason to design a new gun system and carriage every 15 years just to abandon it.

What's happening to the Tiger at the moment is the result of decades of it being mythologised as a sort of super-tank that was better than anything the Allies ever fielded, and now way more people are digging into the actual real machine "warts and all". It was powerful but it had a lot of very real weaknesses and drawbacks, and Allied capabilities caught up to it pretty quickly.

Tank museums in the west are very different to Kubinka, which subscribes to the hyper-patriotic "Russia above everything else always" view of WWII. Western museums are run by people who are enthusiastic about tanks (and other armoured vehicles) as a concept no matter where they came from or what side they fought on, and if anything they actually fetishize German armour slightly due to all the aforementioned mythologizing of the Tiger and other big cats. The Musée des Blindés in France has a functioning Tiger II, and they're also in the process of restoring a Tiger I as well.

Bovington's Tiger 131 is also historically significant on top of being the only currently running example, it was the first-ever Tiger to be captured intact by the Allies.

Why? The M10 Booger looks bad ass

Anti-tank rifles make tanks obsolete

Anti-tank guns make tanks obsolete

Shaped charges make tanks obsolete

ATGMs make tanks obsolete

Drones make tanks obsolete

Weird how despite tanks being obsolete both Russia and Ukraine still employ large numbers of them.

no it's the result of seething leftists being mad that le nazis had superior engineering and superior tactics

the simple reality is they were outnumbered and by the time the tigers were fielded the economy was collapsing so they couldn't produce them in large numbers

The USSR captured the only 2 the kraut retards made. Both were blown-up. Both barly worked before bei9ng blown up. The Russians took parts from both to make 1 that looks whole. There are no spare parts for it.
BTW, World of Tanks and World of Warships are Russian created shitty con-artist's video games.

Isn’t it literally just a regular Abrams either a tiny one shot only turret on top?

They basically strapped a claymore mine on top of a tank and called it an upgrade package

lesson learned in theory the 50s with the advent of tac nukes

What was the solution for offensives then?

It was also a lesson that stayed entirely in theory because playing the nuclear escalation game is a really, really fucking stupid idea.

Absolute cops

Nukes ain’t shit

All you had to do was leave white people the fuck alone and jews could have had it all

It's all about drones now and in overwelming numbers. Potentially uncontrolled, autonomous swarms of drones.

They really didn't have better tech.

Allies had better Radar

British had better anti-tank munitions

Americans had better ship design

Americans made nukes

Americans had more advanced tank designs

The only thing the tiger or panther did well was being bigger and by the end of the war with the Pershing, Centurion even that was falling apart. Even the German prototype and concept tanks from 1945 were inferior to the allied counterparts already entering production.

Granted Germans had better jet engines and rocketry designs although even the latter was more due to a lack of investment with German engineers following in the footsteps of Robert Goddard.

look up pentomic army
tiny independent divisions scattered miles from each other

You are retard.
Drones capabilities, that you can send drones over and over against disabled tank without much risks for you means that disabled tanks are hammeredrepeatedly with drones attacks until they are set on fire. Disabled tanks are very vulnerable against drone, those can pick vulnerable points of tanks like aiming precisely against fuel tanks, drop grenades into open hatches. Drone warfare made battfield massively more lethal for disabled tanks. Never been in easier to finish immobile tanks.

they were decades ahead in a lot of respects, a lot of what we now consider invented in america is basically just reverse engineered german projects that were captured

Americans made nukes

yeah except oppenheimer publically admitted they were stolen from the germans, who had both the infrared fuse technology and the centrifugal refinement process to make it work while america was still dicking around with stacking uranium in piles and seeing how much it heats up

Sure, they CAN. do they in practice? theory is pointless.

lesson learned in theory the 50s with the advent of tac nukes

Not really. The US experimented with formations roughly analagous to Russia's battalion tactical groups, but quickly abandoned the pentomic division structure because the units were too small and didn't have the logistical and support assets to meaningfully act independently.

You can mass forces, the solution is to not be fucking retards and conduct proper scouting and support. It's a $50 walmart drone you can take it out with a baseball, if you lose an armoured battalion to them you should be shot for incompetence.

drones are here to stay but they're also not nearly as big of a deal as internet retards seem to think.

yes, they absolutely are

manageable problem

it isnt

but it doesnt matter because no nation is about to go start attacking another nations satellites

retard

look up pentomic army

tiny independent divisions scattered miles from each other

Thanks

But I’m confused

if they’re that dispersed how do you get enough firepower

if they’re that dispersed how do you even put all your soldiers on the frontline? It unironically becomes an issue at some point

it seems like it makes maneuver warfare impossible

While I don’t care much about MAD, I do believe in nuclear war, and tactical weapons will absolutely be used on military targets, so this topic will ALWAYS be relevant in the future, any army that isn’t tac nuke proof can be destroyed if tactical nukes are used, this is a vulnerability I find unacceptable

As far as I know modern war is generally conducted by platoon sized units of armor (as in the number of tanks, 5-20 tanks), who are all close to each other and operate as a unit, behind them infantry, behind them artillery. In front of the armored vanguard is armored scouts.

Personally I feel like the solution is a lot of firepower, long ranged firepower, so that even a dispersed army can concentrate firepower on one point

That and the traditional M Minute attacks with air strikes, desert storm style

Even German jet engines weren't all that, it's likely that the Meteor was actually the first jet fighter to enter true operational service. On paper the Me 262 was first, but when you dig into the records of the first squadron to receive them it takes a long time after the "operational" date to actually start doing actual operational stuff, especially given that the Luftwaffe was desperate for anything to help tip the scales a little bit by that point in the war.

They do. Ukrainian sources are full of videos like this.
youtube.com/watch?v=-iRMx518kIk

But I’m confused

>if they’re that dispersed how do you get enough firepower

>if they’re that dispersed how do you even put all your soldiers on the frontline? It unironically becomes an issue at some point

>it seems like it makes maneuver warfare impossible

yeah everyone else was wondering that too so it never got made official doctrine

cheap disposable drones are a hard counter to expensive military hardware. this is actually the biggest revolution in warfare since guns became cheap and easy to produce. investing in that stuff is a waste of money now.

What's happening to the Tiger at the moment is the result of decades of it being mythologised as a sort of super-tank that was better than anything the Allies ever fielded, and now way more people are digging into the actual real machine "warts and all". It was powerful but it had a lot of very real weaknesses and drawbacks, and Allied capabilities caught up to it pretty quickly.

They all broke down for one

It was just a bit hunk of armor with a big gun, and under engineered mobility parts... the transmission, sprocket, axle and engine parts would all snap clean off under load with all heavy German tanks, no idea why they all had the same problem

I heard they also had metal quality issue, so perhaps the engineers designed the tanks with some nice idealized material strength graphs, but when Germany couldn’t import high quality steel anymore and had to rely on its own lower quality steel, the calculations no longer worked and the parts were too weak

Allies described the German tanks captured in Africa as having atrocious metal quality, especially the armor, but it could be a problem spread to mechanical components and that could explain why so many broke down

stuff as much firepower as possible into as small units as possible
train them to operate independently of each other

until basic air defense technology from the 60's is scaled down to drone size

Oh, and I forgot to add that the Meteor's engines were rated for significantly more flight hours before needing complete strip-down maintenance while being overall similar in performance to the Me 262.

you called?

yes those are the kind of problems you face when supply lines are cut and economy is failing
and still regularly outperformed allied tanks 10:1

no it's the result of seething leftists being mad that le nazis had superior engineering and superior tactics

I would say they had superior tactics, operational training, doctrine etc

But the engineering really wasn’t that good, the t34s have a much better design than anything Germany fielded for a long time, and the only things that could kill them were over heavy impractical and fuel hungry things like the tigers

The most produced German tank was the stug III

I'd trust my Tacoma or XJ in war over anything issued to me by the retards back in DC.

yeah everyone else was wondering that too so it never got made official doctrine

So modern armies are still vulnerable to tactical nukes?

I don’t know if that’s true, a tank column on a road would be, but from everything I have seen of the Ukraine war, there is never a large number of anything in any one place

It’s extremely dispersed, that’s in part why it’s so static, dispersed units can’t breach or push

As for the topic of surveillance.... IMO knowing the enemy is one thing but it’s not a superpower if you can’t stop the attack, you can know they are massing up troops
It’s like DDAY
The Nazis knew it was coming but it still worked

So UNLIKE NUKES, I don’t see intel as preventing attacks

Tanks are just a jobs program. They've been out of style in any contemporary military doctrine for decades. The only reason we gave Ukraine so many tanks is because they were literally being pumped out just to rot in depots. At least half of all US military spending is just a jobs program.

No. They already are trying that. It already doesn't work, because those systems cost millions of dollars and with millions of dollars you can buy way more than enough drones to overwhelm them. this is legitimately a completely new paradigm in warfare that humanity will now have to adapt to.

but enough about you Anon Babbleike

lmao
you would have been one of those people swearing up and down the rifle is completely pointless because you could only fire one shot,
when the archer could fire many

the intended tactic I think was for the units to link up and push through as a larger formation after an enemy position had already been nuked, then disperse again once the new territory had been captured

DOD should just give them to DHS to patrol the border

you would have been one of those people swearing up and down the rifle is completely pointless because you could only fire one shot,

when the archer could fire many
guess what was actually the case against comanche warriors in real life retard?
they didn't play by the european line warfare rules and completely owned you until revolvers were invented

dispersed units can’t breach or push

correct
they could infiltrate, but for that you'd need mobile infantry - able to leap a minefield in a single jump, hardy enough to walk through airburst 155mm artillery like it's summer rain, each packing enough firepower to one-shot a tank or shred a droneswarm

of course this retard is danish, avoid any post made by that shit flag ever.

LMAO a commanche had never seen a horse untill it saw a white man
commanches didnt do SHIT but terrorize women and children in hit-and-run attacks

guess what happened to them when they finally "found out"?

using the existing systems which are intended for heavy helicopters like hind and apache or low flying jets
a lighter, lower caliber gun that is man portable would be much cheaper and could be distributed among the infantry and mounted on vehicles

yes those are the kind of problems you face when supply lines are cut and economy is failing

and still regularly outperformed allied tanks 10:1

Unless they’re french

youtube.com/watch?v=XbZiFgLgaeU
Germans just drove around our space marine tanks >:(

Russian losses and poor tank KD is mostly due to Russians being a looney communist army

Russian tank crews had 0 hours of training

Russian tankers had never stepped foot in a tank before being sent to the front (Stalin was afraid of tankers revolting and removing him from power)

Soviet tanks had moi coordination

Soviet tanks had poor gun sights, optics was on area the Germans were indeed very superior on

It’s like a guy with 2000 hours in war thunder playing against 20 guys who never drove a tank or thought about tank warfare, who can’t see shit, who don’t know what’s happening or what they’re supposed to be doing

That’s the main reason behind the high KD between soviet and German tanks, allied tanks did not have this problem and traded positively with Germans

When you’re talking matildas, m4 Shermans, jumbos, very comparable to panthers and tigers, like soviet heavier tanks, the difference being the allied actually had a competent force leading them

hes a verbatim Anon Babbleike poster off his containment board
the only place dogshit like that gets spewed unchallanged is there,
requires onmipresent moderation to protect shit-faggotry like that

Drones have invalidated continued investments like that for the time being because the whole approach to warfare needs to now be reevaluated.

the commander's MG on most tanks could probable be retrofitted with a lidar warning and guidance system and a higher vertical traversal, maybe some timed fused explosive rounds and that shuts down all drones right then and there

the t34s have a much better design than anything Germany fielded for a long time

On paper they look much better, but in practice they're a perfect case study in the importance of crew ergonomics. Visibility out of them was extremely poor, which was made even worse by the two-man turret meaning that the commander had to take the role of loader instead of being able to dedicate himself to keeping up situational awareness and directing the tank, which wasn't rectified until all the way in 1944 with the T-34-85 finally getting a three-man turret. Most of them also weren't fitted with radios, so on top of the poor visibility it was extremely difficult to effectively coordinate anything. In a head-to-head fight the T-34 was much better than any early German tank, but it was very easy for the much more coordinated German tanks to outmanoeuvre them. The Germans were also pretty quick to mount a more powerful 75mm gun on the Panzer IV that could frontally penetrate the T-34 at relatively long ranges (and also the StuG).

To give you an idea of just how terrible they were on the inside, at one point the British - who were pretty desperate for more capable tanks - were considering licensing the T-34 and KV-1 for domestic production. The Soviets built a pair of "deluxe" tanks featuring a significantly more comfortable crew compartment and the British evaluators essentially took one look inside these things, said "what the fuck", and the idea was scrapped.

the intended tactic I think was for the units to link up and push through as a larger formation after an enemy position had already been nuked, then disperse again once the new territory had been captured

Yeah but that’s completely braindead if you bunch up your units why even disperse in the first place

I think a much more reasonable solution is using the enemy as a shield: only put yourself in a position to be nuked IF the enemy would have to also nuke itself to do so
That’s one of the reasons I don’t believe in MAD, generally speaking, there are tons of situation where you can survive by surrendering but have 0 chances of survival if you use nukes
If the entire system is computer controlled, and that’s not the case with nukes, then maybe, but with humans... humans usually prefer to stay alive if given a choice
Some nuke operators might do it but it will be a minority
Which could then lead to a weird nuclear exchange, where it’s like "wait we launched a few nukes and there was no MAD, but they’re launching a few nukes back to make a point, do we launch a few nukes back to make a point?" Which would also be very destructive

What's happening to the Tiger at the moment is the result of decades of it being mythologised as a sort of super-tank that was better than anything the Allies ever fielded, and now way more people are digging into the actual real machine "warts and all". It was powerful but it had a lot of very real weaknesses and drawbacks, and Allied capabilities caught up to it pretty quickly.

It's part of the broad trend of "buffs" and non-academics dipping their toes into criticism and documentation based around video game hypotheticals and internet debate, rather than actual history. Tiger crews were quite happy with their Tigers. Tiger maintenance crews had gripes but they understood they weren't just going to get another tank, so they're not complaining about the tank but rather the situation. Allied tank crews were often fearful of tigers, even when they had no reason to be. That is history. Most historians have known about the flaws in the Tiger, but pop history and media doesn't care about that. Now you can't bring up the Tiger with some WoT expert telling you it's gonna break down or something about the transmission (but they can never actually articulate it or find battles where it mattered). They'll tell you about how all the Soviet tankers loved the Sherman but never what they actually have to say. I read one Soviet spg crewman that insisted that the Sherman was a piece of shit, inferior to the T-34, but loved American trucks and jeeps.

Kubinka, which subscribes to the hyper-patriotic "Russia above everything else always" view of WWI

Nonsense. Kubinka is a great museum that lets researchers and visitors climb all over their shit. They love tanks the same as any other tank museum. They do restorations but they're not nearly as funded as other museums in the west and their collection is very sporadic. They're a museum with a pedigree from a Soviet arsenal and testing ground, of course their focus is on Soviet equipment.

the commander's MG on most tanks could probable be retrofitted with a lidar warning and guidance system and a higher vertical traversal, maybe some timed fused explosive rounds and that shuts down all drones right then and there

lmao, hey yah, just shoot the drone out of the air! easy!!! swarms!?? dont worry, even easier!

lmao Anon Babble poster faggot niggers brains are unreal, the shit you people think is literal retardation

shooting a slow moving target out of the air has been easy for decades idiot

correct

they could infiltrate, but for that you'd need mobile infantry - able to leap a minefield in a single jump, hardy enough to walk through airburst 155mm artillery like it's summer rain, each packing enough firepower to one-shot a tank or shred a droneswarm

Nah that’s absurd

Infiltrate... I don’t know what the military linguo definition of that is but I’m picturing something like this While I would argue that intel cannot stop a massive push if the army can’t stop it, I would argue that intel DOES completely nullify any attempts at small units pushing or infiltrating
Something like Rommel’s Ghost division (didn’t he only have a brigade? The dude went rogue and caused the fall of France by complete accident, what a madlad) would NOT fly with constant surveillance

If you try to infiltrate with a small unit...

yo Ivan, are these our guys?

uh nah, look at the uniforms... nah they’re Ukrainians

they’re just driving through no man’s land on scooters! YO IVAN! YOU SEEING THIS SHIT?

should we call in a strike?

uh ... yeah, yeah I guess call in a strike. Man you need to see it to believe it....

My approach would be closer to total guided missile artillery spam, force concentration and maneuver warfare in an annihilated area

It’s also hilarious that in WW2, anti mine tanks were a big thing... mines are as much a problem today as they were by the US army doesn’t field any of these flail tanks anymore

I wouldn’t feel comfortable in the slightest if I didn’t drive behind anti mine tanks... I have a few ideas of vehicles that could be basically immune to mines... armor on the bottom but how do you protect mobility? That’s where the ideas come in

Excellent reply, only thing you're missing is that german field reports about the tigers tranny was that it basically never broke down at 3000 rpm and most problems arose from crews pushing it to 3500

My AGI i developed found that they are testing anti drone swarm tech in an isolated mesa in southwest utah/nevada border. They are scared shitless lads. My family went to watch with binoculars in the area and saw it in real life

On paper they look much better,

Atrocious build quality too even though that’s not what you’re talking about

but in practice they're a perfect case study in the importance of crew ergonomics.

It’s an argument that is thrown around a lot, don’t know how impactful it actually was

Visibility out of them was extremely poor,

Yes and that was a big problem, though I don’t know if I would qualify visibility under ergonomics, I didn’t think of that when you said ergonomics

which was made even worse by the two-man turret meaning that the commander had to take the role of loader instead of being able to dedicate himself to keeping up situational awareness and directing the tank,

In a modern setting imo the commander should be the driver, you no longer need a cupola on top to see around you
But before cameras or even proper mirror optics, yeah they were blind
Some wise angle, either neutral or fish eyed lenses for the gunner would have helped... one eye is a scope for the gun, the other is a fish lense, binoculars, close one eye then the other, that would help in a two man turret
But the soviets were already short on optics, lenses and glass components... mirrors are easier, any polished piece of metal or coated piece of anything with metal is a mirror

Shermans were given to Guards regiments, so on an institutional level it's pretty clear what the opinion of T-34 vs. Sherman was. At least until the T-34-85, anyway.

absurd

how so?

Most of them also weren't fitted with radios,

That’s a problem France also had, because the government refused to pay for radios even though we were one of the pioneers in radio tech
Pure buffoonery

so on top of the poor visibility it was extremely difficult to effectively coordinate anything. In a head-to-head fight the T-34 was much better than any early German tank, but it was very easy for the much more coordinated German tanks to outmanoeuvre them.

Yep. And all these Soviet side problems remained when the Germans rolled out the bigger cats, and the that’s how you get the high KDs
That and the fact soviets had 0 training and 0 hours in a tank

The Germans were also pretty quick to mount a more powerful 75mm gun on the Panzer IV that could frontally penetrate the T-34 at relatively long ranges (and also the StuG).

Judging by war thunder a 75mm isn’t reliable to pierce a t34’s front slope
The kino WW2 gauges were 85 mm, 88mm, 90mm and 95 mm imo
Good enough to destroy almost anything and light enough to not be hyper heavy and impossible to move/fuel hungry to move

To give you an idea of just how terrible they were on the inside, at one point the British - who were pretty desperate for more capable tanks - were considering licensing the T-34 and KV-1 for domestic production.

I never understood this licensing nonsense
Like can’t you just steal the design? The Soviet Union is a rogue state hellbent on world domination that steals everything and wants to steal everything, fuck are they gonna do, file a complaint with the international organisation they’re at war with?
Like I get getting your hands on blueprints but a tank isn’t rocket science, surely you can reverse engineer one of you get your hands on one

shooting a slow moving target out of the air has been easy for decades idiot

lmao, holy fuck drones arent "slow" moving you absolute Anon Babbleike clown

out of the MILLIONS of drones used a month in this war, some fraction of a fraction of a fraction have been taken down with small arms, and each time its like some kind of full-court buzzerbeater shot when it happens, its so rare

Wtf is going on and can burgers make up their minds on light tanks?

Tanks, especially light ones, are obsolete right now.

Any cheap Chinese drone can blow such multi-million dollar tincans to pieces.

Paying royalties patent fees to the Soviet Union is just such an absurd concept, especially in an era before WW2, when they hadn’t given up on world conquest and weren’t a part of the UN or League of Nations or anything else similar

The German tiger 2 is directly based off the t34, look the Porsche prototype, they didn’t ask the soviets for a LOICENSE
OI MATE
OI IVANOVICHOVICH
OI THATS A PRETTY NIFTY TANK U GOT THERE? CAN YO GIMME A LOICENCE FO YOUR TANK HEY?
I guess it’s a British thing to do to ask for a LOICENCE to produce a tank

To give you an idea of just how terrible they were on the inside, at one point the British - who were pretty desperate for more capable tanks - were considering licensing the T-34 and KV-1 for domestic production. The Soviets built a pair of "deluxe" tanks featuring a significantly more comfortable crew compartment and the British evaluators essentially took one look inside these things, said "what the fuck", and the idea was scrapped.

The soviets had the doctrine of giving their tankers padded helmets instead of adding padding to the interior... I mean that’s one way to do it, cheaper, and it would be hard to produce flame retardant padding, you wouldn’t want cork to add to a fire inside a tank

It’s weird because I never see pictures of Germans with padded tank helmets, only soviets, did Germans just not wear helmets?

Turns out donkeys and golf carts are OP.

In order for my prediction to come true this needed to happen. My prediction...Cyber truck DoD fleet vehicles. Tesla to the moon.

they are slow moving relative to rockets and jets
top speed is probably less than a helicopter too
it's slow

but they understood they weren't just going to get another tank, so they're not complaining

That doesn’t strike me as a strong endorsement of the tank

it’s horrible but it’s all we have so we make it work

Not saying the tigers were horrible, they had armor that could stop most projectile and a fun that could kill anything, but they had their issues, most broke down like panthers and tigers 2, very fuel hungry, nightmare with interlaced wheels, too big and complex, industrially inefficient to produce

All tanker crews kept telling mobility and firepower mattered more than armor but the high command wouldn’t listen

You put a 95mm gun on a chassis with 70mm frontal sloped armor, less armor elsewhere and you get an excellent lightweight tank that doesn’t drink all your oil and that you can mass produce, that can stop enemy shells and kill anything in its path

some fraction of a fraction of a fraction have been taken down with small arms

*unguided small arms

Germans were also pretty quick to mount a more powerful 75mm gun on the Panzer IV

They were quick to put the long 50mm into the PzIII, which was sufficient and doesn't get enough credit in discussion, but rather slow to get sufficient numbers of PzIV with long 75mm. I think it wasn't until mid 1943 that they had a good bulk.

But really these tank to tank comparisons ignore the fact that plenty of Soviet and German tanks burned simply because they were sent into clumsy attacks and counterattacks which exposed them to bad angles and positions, not so much that the tank's gun or optics weren't good enough or the armor plate wasn't hard enough.
This is just not true. Plenty of other non-guard tank regiments got Shermans. It was more of a question of training and replenishment. Look at the timeline of tank arrivals and it'll be more clear. You can also read Soviet crew member accounts who talk about it and they don't consider it a special privilege (but they loved how Americans stuffed them with chocolates and goodies and they'd steal the seats).

The sentence I wrote right after?

it seems like it makes maneuver warfare impossible

which is why it is something russia has never been good at. maneuver warfare hinges on projecting force while controlling losses. russias military doctrine instead revolves around projecting losses while controlling force. which makes no fucking sense and feels retarded to type out.

He’s clearly talking about AA systems not a guy with a gun

Also tons of videos of the few people who have shotguns taking down drones very reliably on the first shot, rifle rounds don’t work well, but buckshot/birdshot? That reliably deletes any FPV drone

Sadly most soldiers aren’t given shotguns in this war so they don’t have the tools to defend themselves, even though a shotgun is basically just a metal pipe, the army doesn’t even give them that to save their soldiers life

That’s the true tragedy

hurr durr light tanks are gonna be so useful when we fight the country that produces hundreds of thousands of DJI drones a week

How can you be so stupid and still fill out the captcha? Or is it just America derangement syndrome that blinds people idk

hurr I don't understand what you're saying so it's absurd

look up stosstruppen, then you will maybe understand how infiltration works
then imagine mecha-stormtroopers

slow moving shit has proven to be JUST as hard to target as fast (shahed)

'guided' small arms dont fucking exist you dipshit, and even if they did, they would be orders of magnitudes more expensive than a drone, so its right back to square 1

there is absoltuely NOTHING reliable about attempting to skeet shoot a drone zigzagging at 60mph coming at you, while youre sitting on a fucking 4-wheeler, like holy absolute fuck

if every soldier was issued a shotgun instead of a rifle, it wouldnt make a fucking bit of difference
unironically, they should just issue shotguns as Personal defense, because the rifle itself is basically useless untill youre in skirmishing range of "the other guy" which apparently happens very little at this stage of the war

Russian BMP1/BMP2 have 19mm sides.

19 mm measured horisontaly, its 8-10 mm plates angled, and artillery fragments come from every direction, meaning that they get shredded by artillery misses and are torn apart if they run over a mine.

I don’t believe in MAD

but with humans... humans usually prefer to stay alive if given a choice

That is literally the #1 principle behind MAD, people don't throw tactical nuclear weapons around because they're afraid of the very real risk of it prompting an escalatory spiral that ends with the complete destruction of everyone involved. Yeah, sure, the other guy might not escalate - but at the same time he very well might, and do you want to take that risk?

'guided' small arms dont fucking exist you dipshit,

yeah but once they do, and they will, because it's the obvious low cost counter to drones
once they exist, the drone party is OVER

this is how it always is with new technology, there is a happy period where the new thing goes unopposed and takes the enemy by surprise
then obvious counter measures are developed and it's not the magic bullet it was hyped to be

which is why it is something russia has never been good at.

They did get some encirclements in WW2
Regardless maneuver warfare works really well, so if you find a way to do it that can be war winning

maneuver warfare hinges on projecting force while controlling losses. russias military doctrine instead revolves around projecting losses while controlling force. which makes no fucking sense and feels retarded to type out.

From my understanding the Russian doctrine was

bomb it to shit until it’s rubble then bomb the ruble some more then send tanks in and after they all die to RPGs sens infantry in the rubble

Which to be fair does work somewhat
Especially the total artillery spam part

Western sources don’t talk about this, but Russia mass produces huge bombs constantly and drops them on Ukraine, they have like 10x more artillery shells than Ukraine, so their intended doctrine seems more like spamming explosives than attrition
Attrition is just what ends up happening due to other shortcomings but I don’t think it’s the plan

Russian army commanders also work with a checklist to decide what to do, literal bureaucratic tactical decisionmaking

Bro if I have to die in battle it would be so fun to die on a motorcycle if I could dodge a rocket that has to be so cool for a few seconds.

nothing 'guided' is low cost you fucking retard

the drones cost a few hundred dollars,
the 'guided munitions' will be a few hundred dollars PER SHOT, and you will need an entire magazine to down a single drone

look at the fucking shahed,
its 1:1 your argument, simply scaled up, and literally nothing can stop those either, so the idea youre going miniaturize some theoretical 'micro' guided munition, and it will be more cost effective than the drone is INSANE

in ALL cases, its simply smarter doctrine to just 'make more drones'

Shielding from EMP exists, next gen is AI hunter killer teams you can do nothing about, like skynet

because they're all defeated by $100 drones.

allied tanks did not have this problem and traded positively with Germans

It took 5 shermans to kill 1 panther.

the bullets aren't individually guided idiot
the firing platform is guided, optimal firing paramters is computed from radar data
literal 60+ year old tech
modern lidar could also be used, probably better for the small scale of drones and likely cheaper too, not susceptible to jamming

LIDAR-guided buckshot

1 fragmenting pineapple grenade. Zzz

pentagon plans on moving out of mothers basement

Yeah ok pentagon

Drones could carry a shape carge bomb.?

YOURE DESCRIBING SHIT THEY ALREADY HAVE, AND ITS SO EXPENSIVE ITS FUCKING MEANINGLESS

and youre little $multi-million "lidar guided shotgun batter" will simply eat a swarm of suicide drones, and become obliterated trash, back to square one

could probably even develop handheld smart weapon in the future too, which detects drones and automatically fires when it is going to be hit, so the infantryman simply points in the general direction of the drone with the trigger held and the gun figures out the rest, no game show aim skill required

look up stosstruppen, then you will maybe understand how infiltration works

then imagine mecha-stormtroopers

No it’s actually exactly what I imagined it was

My point on this is that the role storm troopers filled in a WW1 trench context should nowadays be filled by things like drone strikes, big long range mortars, precise artillery, missiles and air strikes

It’s just objectively absurd to send in small units behind no man’s land on the enemy side to... idk try to sabotage weakly defended strategic targets? When they’re all gonna get spotted, die, and long distance bombing could do the exact same thing

Storm troopers were invented as a doctrine that DIDNT WORK to defeat trench warfare

In WW2 they were turned into bunker assault units, they were the flamethrower boys, they would saturate a casemate with suppressive fire, someone would get close with a flamethrower to make defenders leave the casemate, then others would through a huge x7 grenade stack inside to destroy any static gun and wreck the place, and from then on soldiers would hold the angle with guns so that no one can get back in the casemate

Going behind enemy lines... any proper army can strike any point far beyond the line in both direction if they know where to shoot

Artillery has a range of around 25km (can vary a lot), an armored personnel transport would take half an hour to cross that distance if it’s driving at 50 kmh ... and there is defense in depth so it would take you hours of driving if not days before you reach a point where the deployed army can’t hit you... and the airforce and cruise missiles still can even if you’re super deep in enemy territory

I am not aware of any such thing
I know Shilka and Tunguska have been effective against drones, so the principle is proven, but those are massive guns intended for low flying jets, it simply needs to be scaled down so it can be mounted on every tank, likely replacing commanders MG, and once it is the drone party is over

there is absoltuely NOTHING reliable about attempting to skeet shoot a drone zigzagging at 60mph coming at you,

No with a shotgun it’s very doable

while youre sitting on a fucking 4-wheeler, like holy absolute fuck

You’re adding extra factors now
Yeah if you are on a bumpy ride it becomes way harder, so the procedure should be to stop, shoot with shotguns, keep driving, it’s not like driving in a straight line in a truck does anything to evade a drone

if every soldier was issued a shotgun instead of a rifle,

On top of *

it wouldnt make a fucking bit of difference

unironically

Ok says you
You bring 0 facts to back that up, meanwhile in basing what I say from things like bird hunting, hundreds of videos where shotgun dudes shoot down drones in the first shot without missing, and 0 video where a guy with a shotgun died to a drone

If you’re a bad shot it won’t make you immune but it should lower casualty rate to drones by like 90%

And the danish anon was talking about proper AA systems fine tuned for drones... they wouldn’t be everywhere but when they are there, I’m with him on the fact they would VERY EFFICIENTLY clear the skies

That is literally the #1 principle behind MAD, people don't throw tactical nuclear weapons around because they're afraid of the very real risk of it prompting an escalatory spiral that ends with the complete destruction of everyone involved. Yeah, sure, the other guy might not escalate - but at the same time he very well might, and do you want to take that risk?

Are you asking me personally? Yes but I’m kinda insane
I like to fuck around
It works way more often than people would think
But you can’t fuck around if you fear death

unreal, child like delusion

I am not aware of any such thing

I know Shilka and Tunguska have been effective against drones, so the principle is proven, but those are massive guns intended for low flying jets, it simply needs to be scaled down so it can be mounted on every tank, likely replacing commanders MG, and once it is the drone party is over

lmao the absolute state of faggot nigger nato logic

nato logic:

"nato could defeat Russia on the battlefield in an instant but it chooses not to but it could in 2 hours if it wanted to but for now it just doesnt want to (but it could)"

all of what you said exists already and none of it does JACK SHIT for the drone threat

did you mean this thing? it says it is manually operated, unguided, seems to rely on volume of fire to compensate for bad aim
yahoo.com/news/russia-deploys-24-barrel-buckshot-173111429.html

Ofc its a ruskie shill, tell me what percent of US GDP is going to ukraine vs Russian GDP? We barely even gave them f-16s from the 1970s ffs

leave it to an american to think he is the rest of the world by himself

No with a shotgun it’s very doable

no it fucking isnt you deluded shit eating Anon Babble faggot

You bring 0 facts to back that up,

the million+ afu dead prove conclusively that simply "shooting the drones out of the sky! easy!"
isnt possible and never will be there are simply too many drones, and the man/machine will ALWAYS run out of ammo first

if a simple fucking shotgun could "lower drone casualties by 90%" you would have seen the mass unyielding adoption of shotguns everywhere, and every mans rifle would be some dust collecting back up

literally how often do you think two men get into a visual-range rifle fight, vs NEVER EVER even seeing eachother on the battlefield?

the drone is basically the new "rifle"
and the shotgun (if its as effective as you claim) would be the only gun any soldier would need, because 99% of the time he will NEVER be storming some trench, building or urban area (which is now the drones job)

It took 5 shermans to kill 1 panther.

Every source online I find says it was close to equal with an advantage for the Americans
Did you just make this up or do you have a source

Also it’s hard to even measure because the vast majority of German tank losses were due to mechanical failure and running out of fuel, not enemy fire
And out of the combat losses, only a fraction came from tank on tank combat... attack planes, bombers, anti tank guns, bazookas

Shit take. Drones are omnipresent. Total battlefield observability. AI powered hunter killer drones will seek and destroy any tank with ease. Tanks have no function other than oppressing urban civilian populations.

the million+ afu dead

Ok you’re just insane there isn’t a million people who died from drones

1 million is about the estimate when you add up all losses of the war from both sides, you’re completely crazy and you have no idea what you’re talking about, you didn’t even try to counter the backing evidence and you brought none except being wrong on casualty number by like a factor of a thousand, well done bozo

did you mean this thing?

no, thats some goofy one-off Frankenstein contraption, not an actual official weapons system

holy fuck how old are you?
are you a child?
how are you so unbelievably mind shattered by tv and video games
how much Anon Babble do you browse?

GDP is a literal fake, gay jew number for niggers like you to throw around like some kind of "own"
the reality is, this war caused the global collapse of 'western hegemony' and ushered in the 'multi-polar world order' what percentage of the US economy that cost is fucking irrelevant, because the consequence is the same

Our entire arsenal is one big fedbux printer go brrrrrr grift. We would lose a major conventional war against Russia + China but no one wants to hear it

The future of fake war is sending waves of white boys to die. Back to WW1 tactics - kill all white goyim.

I still don't get it

degenerates like you belong on a cross

drone strikes, big long range mortars, precise artillery, missiles and air strikes

exactly none of these things can hold ground

to..

overrun and take over enemy positions (that were previously softened by the means you mentioned)
hold said positions in the face of the inevitable long-range counter-fires and possible counter-attacks
leap forward again once relieved

realistically a mobile infantry suit could do 25-30 km/h offroad and nobody is going to send a cruise missile or equivalent after one grunt even if he does carry a big ass recoil-less rifle

You are going to make all the tanker fags mad with this but it's true.

who the fuck signs up for this

Our entire arsenal is one big fedbux printer go brrrrrr grift. We would lose a major conventional war against Russia + China but no one wants to hear it

not only that, we would lose DEVASTATINGLY
the ROT in the west is beyond comprehension
thus, the only retreat is into the fantasy that the world is still 1991 and the US about to launch its "air war"/desert storm

The reality is that europe is completely militarily defeated after londons folly in Russia, and the US dodges any true criticism by being an ocean away from its nearest 'peer'

Nigga what the fuck are u smoking

Russia was #2 army in the world for years because of its soviet legacy, now it’s all gone and they are using donkeys and mopeds on the front line, you are delusional.

sherman was a shit medium tank
it needed to be because it had to be shipped across the ocean in large numbers
it was the right tank for the job because such a tank is much better than going with no tank
soviets and germans had the home field advantage to build heavy tanks, but soviets were incompetent, so the german tanks were better
maybe if americans had been able to produce heavy tanks in france things would look different but they didn't

entire american tank doctrine after ww2 revolved around the tiger, nazis had awesome heavy tank, we want one too
end result = abrams

americans are obsessed with big guns

Armored vehicles are obsolete. The future belongs to airborne drone carriers capable of loitering at high altitude.

who the fuck signs up for this

lmao pic related

We won't need tanks where we're going.

t. this guy

The future belongs to airborne drone carriers capable of loitering at high altitude.

light tanks are clearly obsolete in modern war

there's not much difference between a Chadly and an LT. imo Bradly is basically a Sherman with an autocannon and some trunk space.

Depends on the drone types in the area, stopping is probably not your best option in

Yep.

Just base your military theory on absolutely nothing

This idea that we need endless tanks to deal with Russia or China and that we're going to have a big tank war with them is laughable. If we're going to bring back practically worthless and dated hardware for modern warfare like light tanks, we should rather commission some A10 warthogs because they are cool as fuck. Or SR-71, they're simply beautiful to look at. Or destroyers, they're cool as fuck. All of these are more useful than light tanks right now or in the foreseeable future. Imagine mowing down narcos with an A10. Would be cool as fuck.

exactly none of these things can hold ground

They can kill anyone trying to walk into an area if that’s not holding ground I don’t know what is

Your concepts of holding ground are literally about setting up WW1 era machine gun nests
Setting up a machine gun nest allows you to prevent soft targets from getting into the killing field of your gun
But guess what so do precision strikes

hold said positions in the face of the inevitable long-range counter-fires and possible counter-attacks

leap forward again once relieved

My other argument is that this part is now COMPLERELY impossible

You cannot with a small unit of foot soldiers or armor survive the heat of concentrated fire from all side by all the enemy’s ranged firepower with modern surveillance and long range capabilities

You got your 20 American APCs behind enemy line, let’s say they occupy a bridge... then what? Yeah they get shot at with everything from all directions and die

realistically a mobile infantry suit could do 25-30 km/h offroad and nobody is going to send a cruise missile or equivalent after one grunt even if he does carry a big ass recoil-less rifle

Realistically nobody is going to drive tanks through the Ardennes

Plus you don’t need a big cruise missile for a grunt, tons of systems exist/ are being developed that can do that much cheaper... ranging from quad copters, model airplane drones, machine gun wielding big drones, tiny missiles, guided artillery

The Russian doctrine right now is just to shoot artillery round after artillery round until it hits even if it takes them 50 shells for one grunt, they can afford it

So now you just have a grunt with a machine gun, behind enemy lines, being useless and doing nothing while being shelled until he dies, what does that achieve?
An APC is the same

tripwire mines?

Strykers sucked ass, Humvees are outdated now, AH64's were due to end all production this year.

it was known in mid 18th centure already that machineguns would mow down massed formations with ease
yet mass infantry attacks continued until 1918 with predictable results

it has been known for decades now that a single swedish electric submarine can sink entire US battlegroup in NATO exercises
new supercarriers continue to be built with no additional submarine protection
same thing happens over and over
actually last german naval battle in ww2 was new electric submarines and they destroyed entire atlantic battlegroup with no losses, this truth has been known since ww2, nothing done about it this whole time in favor of emulating glamorous hollywood air battles with carriers and playing top gun

idiot military leadership only learns by sacrifice of their children every time

airborne drone carriers capable of loitering at high altitude.

Sounds easy to shoot down. Big target = bad.

Wtf is going on and can burgers make up their minds on light tanks?

No, in fact the the entire Western military industrial complex is corrupt to its core, it employs all these generals which outside of service in consultant positions or on the board of directors. In addition they can never specify what they actually need so programs always suffer from specification bloat. Most of these development programs are gigantic fucking grifts with limited runs going into service to line the pockets of a specific few. In addition everything that does get adopted for complete adoption is overpriced bullshit in one way or another because of aforementioned corruption.
You spam a 5 dollar signal jammer or 50 cent laser or guided gun to fuck up their drone. Just because something isn't invulnerable doesn't mean it's useless. We already had this fucking discussion when ATGM's were first introduced, people are just too fucking dense to realize that because of the propaganda factor of this war were getting an overabundance of drones being the be-all-end-all in shit warfare between to shitholes.

If drone use becomes wide spread, they would bring back chemical warfare. Neutralizing drone operators would be the only way to effectively counter drones.

Ok that’s all nice and all but I asked for a source of your 5 to 1 KD ratio figure
Wait no you’re a different guy you just replied to my reply to his reply

So about what you’re saying, the fact remains that Shermans and other American tanks were more than effective in the western front... you say they’re bad but they went toe to toe with German heavy tanks and either won or traded at equal odds so they’re clearly pretty good not bad

The German 88 millimeter the German tanks had would bounce off the front and turret armor of shermans, especially the later models, they were an absolute nightmare to deal with

Their weird tall shape was actually designed to stand at an angle behind a hill... meaning their 45° slanted armor becomes more like 80° slope... 60 mm armor... at an angle it’s more like 120° slope

Shermans were VERY WELL protected from enemy tank fire, very clever design, transmission in front to act as extra armor, the big slope of hell as protection, tons of added turret armor, 75/90mm that kills everything... very good tanks imo, they performed very well despite being much cheaper than the German tanks

You spam a 5 dollar signal jammer or 50 cent laser or guided gun to fuck up their drone

ok but this doesnt fucking work, and it has been demonstrated ad-nauseam

drones are entirely paradigm changing, and NOTHING is bringing back the pre 2022 world of war back ever again, NOTHING

americans had to use numerical advantage to flank germans because they could not engage head to head
there is some advantage of cheap shit in numbers, and at least mutts have some sense of self preservation unlike soviet bugmen

Neutralizing drone operators would be the only way to effectively counter drones.

this is why hypersonic and "time-sensitive" weapons will grow exponentially in importance

before long though, the drones will operate 'autonomously' so locating the operator will become about locating command and control centers and kinzhaling them

make C-RAM smaller

put it on a ultra short pulse laser turret

strap that bitch on every friendly vehicle

No more drones

or jets for that matter

*sneaks up behind u*

heh nothin personnel yid
litter.catbox.moe/uol0ng.mp4

Depends on the drone types in the area, stopping is probably not your best option in

Stopping makes you a juicy target for artillery, but if you only stop 10 seconds it’s fine

All quad copters can hit a vehicle of the pilot is good/AI pilot
It doesn’t matter what the vehicle does, a vehicle can pull maybe 0.3 G of acceleration, a drone can pull 15G, you’re not dodging that by moving the steering wheel around

Overall I think that dodging and jamming are spooks and the only way to defend against drones is to shoot them down... lasers shotguns AA turrets shockwave bombs, smaller drones... I don’t really care as long as it works
But you have to shoot them down. And thankfully they’re a lot easier to shoot down than missiles

embezzling billions of dollars to jewish scum rats that overprice everything x10000

yeah the pentagon made a good choice

neither russia or ukraine can meaningfully gain air superiority
same thing happening in paki-hindu war again
range of SAM and BVRAAM has gotten so huge you can't incur on enemy territory, can't shoot down enemy jets camping the backline, can't advance into enemy territory to do meaningful strikes

it is the end of air power, but both sides still need to have air power to prevent the other side from getting air superiority

so end result now is air force is both performatory and useless and utterly critical

ww2 maneuver doctrine depended entirely on air support, modern NATO doctrine depends entirely on air superiority, which is no longer possible, so dramatic maneuvers are no longer possible, and we're back to trench warfare

absolutely insane

Holy shit guys, your enemy may have a chance to kill you, better not make anything that he can shoot!

...
Someone doesn't Love the Suck Enough.

Yeah we can all agree idiots are a massive problem everywhere they can be found
At least their stupidity is their weakness

neither russia or ukraine can meaningfully gain air superiority

How come the airplanes aren’t destroyed on the ground anyways ?

How come the airplanes aren’t destroyed on the ground anyways ?

nato has a complete and total absence of any hypersonic 'time sensitive' weapon that could strike a jet about to sortie, on the ground
critical issue for them

real future is probably precision guided railgun artillery spotted by low flying drones or satellite, can't be shot down, cruise missile like range, can neutralize enemy air defences at extreme range and open up for an air offensive
US Navy had the headstart on this but they keep canceling useful things so who knows, maybe china will build it first now

I fapped to her so much in the past

nato has a complete and total absence of any hypersonic 'time sensitive' weapon that could strike a jet about to sortie, on the ground

critical issue for them

Why can’t you just strike airplane hangars with regular missiles
Even if you need a few missiles to overwhelm interceptor systems that seems like a favorable trade compared to the cost of the plane

Or do they not know where any of the thousands of planes are stored?

We are currently building the world largest drone fleet that will charge wirelessly and stay in the stratosphere until called upon.

We will rain fire and rods on anyone if we need to. No fucking tank is going to stop us now.

reaching enemy airfield is the problem, it will be swarmed in huge network of detection and air defences, and CIWS can shoot down most bombs and missiles on the last mile

real future is probably precision guided railgun artillery spotted by low flying drones or satellite, can't be shot down, cruise missile like range, can neutralize enemy air defences at extreme range and open up for an air offensive

US Navy had the headstart on this but they keep canceling useful things so who knows, maybe china will build it first now

Coilgun
Railrun are absolute trash you have no idea

You need to replace the BARREL every 3 shot with a rail gun, railguns are a brain dead meme weapon

Coilguns don’t melt themselves down when they shoot, rail guns are an orc weapon, there’s only 2 metal beams a bullet and high voltage electricity, that’s all you need, the electricity going through the bullet from one rail to the other propels it forward, inefficiently, while literally arc welding the bullet to the barrel they’re one of the stupidest weapon ideas ever invented
Coilguns are what people think railguns are

and CIWS can shoot down most bombs and missiles on the last mile

Impressive if true, do you know what systems can do stuff like shoot down artillery shells out of the air and other impressive performance like that?

It must be only a few high tech very finely tuned systems

the jets are in fortified bunkers untill its time to sortie, and the airfields are out of range of the types of missiles that could credibly target them

planned&expected, coming 3rd quarter 2041

like everything else nato does you idiot child

here is a video of one defending a US base from mortar fire I think, in afghanistan?
youtube.com/watch?v=zp0i4fJNuTE

the jets are in fortified bunkers untill its time to sortie, and the airfields are out of range of the types of missiles that could credibly target them

If that’s the case it’s basically a macro economic failure in not mass producing enough long ranged bunker busters

However if planes can’t fly anyways it’s not that big of a missed opportunity, a permanently sitting plane might as well be a bombed plane

Tank = drone catcher
Human = drone catcher
Women make humans for free. Tanks cost money. The future of war is its past, mass human sacrifice to power various demons.

If that’s the case it’s basically a macro economic failure in not mass producing enough long ranged bunker busters

the bunkers simply get deeper, thicker and more unbustable, untill thats no longer an option (look at Iran for instance)

it also turns out that getting your bunker buster to accurately hit said target cost ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more than most other strategies too