Seriously, why shoudn't the workers own the means of production?

There are 2 types of fiat currency:
1. Physical cash and coins printed, minted or coined by the central banks (or for them by private businesses under exclusivity contracts with the central banks).
2. Money of account. This is fictional cash and coins which don't exist physically and are just promises to pay cash or coins, in the same nominal amount, to the holder, on demand. They exist on the ledgers of the banking system.
Banks have been granted the right to "legally" deceive the entirety of society that the second type of fiat currency is the same as the first or that it doesn't exist, with the implication being that the second type of fiat currency is actually the first type when it really isn't. The proof that these two are not the same type of fiat currency, and also the proof that there is *A LOT* more of the second type in existence than the first, is that banks can run out of the first type of fiat currency to honour "withdrawal" requests against the second type, by depositors who think they're the same thing, and to avoid that happening, there are laws on the books in every country to force private individuals and businesses to store their physical fiat currency notes and coins, above a meagre amount, in banks and thus only use the second type of fiat currency for their larger transactions. In addition to this, convenience and online purchases ensure that most people prefer the second type of fiat currency.
While only central banks control the creation and issuance into circulation in the economy of the first type of fiat currency, any non-central bank anywhere can issue more of the second type of fiat currency into circulation. They do this by pretending to "lend" the first type of fiat currency to willing borrowers. But in actual fact, they just create more of the second type of fiat currency when they approve the "loan" (which is actually credit and not a loan) and issue it to the borrower. Or a credit card holder pays for something with it.

When you go to the bank or the ATM to withdraw cash, you're actually asking to have your fictional cash and coins, which only exist as digits on the digital ledger of your bank, exchanged for physical cash and coins.
Regardless of your opinion on central banks, all non-central banking is legalised fraud because non-central banks issue (create and introduce into circulation) fictional cash and coins by pretending to "lend" it to willing borrowers, who then spend it into the economy, and lying to everyone in society that that fictional cash and coins actually physically exists or is backed by existing physical cash and coins in the same actual amount. Not the case. And this is all somehow ((("legal"))) because jews lying to non-jews and deceiving them and robbing them is perfectly fine as far as jews are concerned.
However, although most banks, in most places, will allow you to exchange your fictional fiat currency notes and coins for physical fiat currency notes and coins, they will put a daily limit on how much of the first type of fiat currency you can exchange for the latter. Or, if you want to exchange large amounts, they'll make you schedule the withdrawal days to weeks in advance. And in some of the most pozzed and jewed jew world order shitholes, which are the 5 eyes countries, banks are starting to outright refuse to allow you to withdraw your cash (actually exchange your fictional cash and coins for physical ones) as steps are being taken to get rid of cash altogether there.
Without cash, bank runs aren't possible because there is no physical cash and coins you can request to have your fictional cash and coins exchanged for when you try and "withdraw" some of your cash you think exists in the bank vault. With bank runs being impossible, every non-central bank becomes its own central bank, with no limit on digital fiat currency creation. Especially combined with de facto or (in the case of the US, de jure since 2020) zero reserve requirements.

based

he doesn't make 3000 of them in an hour

he, alongside other 20 worthless people make them in an hour, using tools and facility provided by someone else

So why don't the owners fire them if they're worthless?

if he could make 3000 of them every hour then he wouldn't need a factory to work in

So why do they keep him employed if he's not required to make those 3000?

Because jews print capital and if capital is not king then jews cant jew.

"capital" is a weasel word jews rely on for their pilpul. "Value" is another.

Communism

Never actually existed. Unironically.

he doesn't make 3000 of them very hour. he supervises the machine that makes 3000 of them every hour.
he couldn't afford to buy the machine himself.

nobody said they're worthless, just not as worthy as they think of themselves out to be

It's not a problem. He can just design and build his own widget factory, hire employees, and then he would own the means of production.

pic unrelated

Capitalism is a jewish scam which runs on perpetual geometric expansion of the fiat currency supply

Right of the bat the first sentence is fucking nonsense.

Capitalism

Is a word invented by a communist.

jewish scam

You're thinking of fiat currency.

runs on perpetual geometric expansion

Mechanization and automation are not a function of nor require or are required for fiat currencies. They are separate invention.

the fiat currency supply

Fiat currencies on the other hand actually are a jewish scam, and you could have a perfectly fine free market with private ownership WITHOUT fiat currencies which are inflationary by nature and and essentially part of any economy that runs on credit.

There's nothing that prevents us from having a free market with private ownership WITHOUT credit or fiat currencies. Those are the two things that FUCK EVERYTHING UP. It's not private property nor is it free market that makes things worse for us in the modern world, ITS FUCKING CREDIT AND INFLATIONARY FIAT CURRENCIES YOU COMMUNIST JEW FUCK.

Has he invented, designed, built and maintained, and paid for the machines that allows him to produce 3000 in an hour?

Nope. Neither have the owners of the business, lmfao.

No, he has not. Fucking commie. When he can do all of those things he can own the means of production.

Typical assblasted idiot with polish flag.

the ceo's be on crack and sheeeit nigguh
the last time a leader was prescribed cocaine he then decided to invade russia and declare war on the US so I don't think so

nobody said they're worthless

So why don't the owners fire them if they're worthless?

They are not worthless, just not high enough value to keep around indefinitely. Probably anyone with IQ above 90 can be trained to do the same job in a week or two, hence he is replaceable, and hence his value is low.

So why do they keep him employed if he's not required to make those 3000?

Eventually he won't be employed as all aspects of production will become automated. It's only a matter of time and investment.

Because he's an easily replaceable cog in a machine that only does a small part of assembling the end product. He didn't actually "make" anything, nor is he invested in any way in the mechanisms that allow those things to be made or sold.

Nobody is stopping workers from buying the means of production and henceforward owning them.

What they are being stopped from doing is stealing the means of production by force.

This is typical for all kinds of property. There's no reason it should be different for means of production.

Because the worker doesn't pay for:

1) The mortgage for in which the building lies
2) The loan for which the machine that he operates that makes the product costs per month
3) The electricity that it costs to run his machine and the building
4) The contract to outsource the raw materials
5) The shipping contract to bring the materials into the shop
6) The risk involved if any of the above fails
7) The training and other expenses that the worker incurs things like insurance and salary

If he wants a bigger piece of the pie why doesn't he put up equity into the business? You know the answer.

Yeah the facility and the labor of all the other people making it is expensive.
Also consider the materials cost, which while cheap, is not nothing. Another huge cost is the marketing and logistical cost of getting this stuff sold. Maybe you can bang out 10,000 of these in your garage, but is anyone going to buy them? You'd need an e-commerce site at minimum and shipping. You need to compete with other producers, including cheaper copies from China. You'd probably need to hire someone to do customer service and sales, unless you like 80 hour work weeks.

People think that a factory is just somewhere wagies go push some buttons and the owner profits. There's a ton of cost to a business and also a lot of risk. The business turns unprofitable and the factory shuts down, what does the wagie do? They find another job in a couple of weeks or months.

The owner is out millions and could face bankruptcy. It's not always fair and some places are scummy, but it's not like owning the means of production would suddenly make everyone happy. More likely you'd see places shut down because wages don't have the skills to compete on a fair market, so you'd have to have state control of production. See history for how well that usually turns out.

well, individually they're worthless

They should. That's why you should support small local businesses where people own the means of production and not some mega shareholders.

he's worth as much as it costs to replace him, which is extremely little

Nope. Neither have the owners of the business, lmfao.

No, but they paid for someone to build those, and whoever build them paid for licenses to build them and whoever owns the license either invented it or bought the rights from the inventer. In effect everyone is rewarded for the contribution.

But you don't like that do you you communist fuck? You'd rather people who have never invented anything in their life, or built a complex mechanism in their life, to be rewarded the same as someone who has?

No thank you. How about you fuck off?

No one's stopping them.

because they didn't buy them commie

So why is this retard just giving his labor for pennies when he could make them and make 1000x more money? Is he stupid or something

They can: Buy shares of stock.

Right of the bat the first sentence is fucking nonsense.

How so?

Is a word invented by a communist.

What may I call i then?

You're thinking of fiat currency.

Same thing as capitalism because capitalism cannot exist without fiat currency.
In before you conflate trade, barter or commerce with capitalism.

Mechanization and automation are not a function of nor require or are required for fiat currencies. They are separate invention.

Where did I mention automation or mechanisation in my first 4 posts?

Fiat currencies on the other hand actually are a jewish scam,

Yes. So is capitalism, since it cannot exist without them.

and you could have a perfectly fine free market with private ownership WITHOUT fiat currencies which are inflationary by nature and and essentially part of any economy that runs on credit.

You can have trade, commerce or barter but NOT a for-financial-profit operated economy without a perpetually geometrically expanding money supply. Which requires that the legal tender be fiat currency because that's the only way to have a perpetually geometrically expanding supply of legal tender.

There's nothing that prevents us from having a free market with private ownership WITHOUT credit or fiat currencies.

lol. Financial profit would be statistically impossible without perpetual geometric expansion of the supply of legal tender. Which requires that the legal tender be fiat currency.

Those are the two things that FUCK EVERYTHING UP.

Typical delusional pole.

It's not private property

You don't own private property under capitalism because property taxes exist, lmfao. You don't own land, you don't own your house. You don't even own your car, lmfao. You don't actually own anything you have to pay property taxes on, retarded pole.

nor is it free market that makes things worse for us in the modern world, ITS FUCKING CREDIT AND INFLATIONARY FIAT CURRENCIES

So capitalism.

YOU COMMUNIST JEW FUCK.

I'm not jewish. I also still have my foreskin.

Executives are workers too. As a worker I don't really care about owners being dicks or penny pinchers. I would too. My distaste is mainly for management, who fuck both the owners and the workers below them. Even then, I know plenty of workers who are scumbags and would do the same if they could.

Well, if the means of production break, are the workers going to repair it for no compensation? Or are they going to leave at seek compensation elsewhere?

well, individually they're worthless

So why are they employed and paid something instead of fired?

Seriously, why shoudn't the workers own the means of production?

Because no one would work.

Because they suck at managing them, as per communism's failure.
A good worker is not likely to be a good manager.

Besides for any exception capitalism provides options that boil down to this already: Paying your workers in shares means you're partial owner.

Making that practice mandatory to some extent woukd not be something most capitalisys would oppose.

They're not worthless. They receive an amount of money for standing next to these machines exactly according to the market value of their time.

I guarantee you in whichever factory in the US he is in, hes one of maybe 4 guys on the floor. And the others are doing other thing making their own shit.

If hes got 20 worthless people, its those down the line who don't directly make anything. Some of them at best facilitate sales and shipping, and that is at best. That entire building is on his back, along with every other person getting paid. And if anything goes wrong HE is responsible and fired.

Meanwhile the 'owner' is sitting in a fucking yacht off the coast of some crystal clear waters half the year fucking three thousand dollar whores. This guy gets bitched at if he even takes a fucking piss break.

Fuck you, I would rather you all get nuked than keep this shit going.

Because people are hopeless and cannot organize anything without the threat of coercion.

Then for fucks sake just make your own.

If he makes 3000 an hour why isn't he selling them?

The workers do own the means of production. Labor. No matter at what skill level.
We as a society need to start seeing Labor as the true commodity. We sell our Labor, skilled or not, in exchange for transferable certificates.
We should tariff labor, not goods. We need to stop selling ourselves short.

The largest obstacle is the system we have permitted to exist, that does not allow us to easily challenge the value of our own Labor.
You can challenge it. If you don't like your compensation, work elsewhere. Trick is you need to get the other Laborers on board.

We need to stop blaming each other for declining birth rates, and declare this a birth strike. We will not produce more Laborers until compensation improves.

They are not worthless, just not high enough value to keep around indefinitely. Probably anyone with IQ above 90 can be trained to do the same job in a week or two, hence he is replaceable, and hence his value is low.

A lot of conjecture there.

Eventually he won't be employed as all aspects of production will become automated. It's only a matter of time and investment.

Who will buy the widgets if all employers do likewise?

i make 3000 of them every hour

And what about the guys who design, build and maintain all the machines that the worker uses? What's their share? Etc, etc.

So why do they keep him employed if he's not required to make those 3000?

Because he is part of the production process, he just isn't the only part of the production process. Materials need to be mined, refined, transported etc. Computers need to be designed, built, programmed etc. Machines need to be designed, built, maintained etc. These people also need to be compensated. Just because you are the final step in the chain doesn't mean the entire chain is your work.

There are no good reasons for 99% of us at least

You can have trade, commerce or barter but NOT a for-financial-profit operated economy without a perpetually geometrically expanding money supply.

Absolute nonsense that you assert without any evidence. Just because current economies are built on fiat doesn't mean you need fiat to have global trade. Does having an supply of easy to transfer currency that everyone accepts make international trade easier? Yes it does. Is it required to have international trade? No, it does not. Currencies can be tied to many things that are real, and don't require to be inflationary in nature. For example, you could have a currency based on electrical energy. You can have EURkWh for example, which could be issued by any power provider in any country in europe(or it could be national, doesn't have to be cross national), which could then be used to trade. And that's just one example.

The idea that you HAVE TO HAVE FIAT CURRENCY to have modern economies is a total fallacy, and for some reason you're perpetuating this fallacy, which is ridiculous to me because it seems like you should be trying to dismantle it if you hate this jewish scam too.

Anyway, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is possible and what is not possible, go back to the drawing board.

omg but they started with the money

muh risk

Stfu it’s literally just rich people get to be rich, the risk is non existent as long as print money gang and bankruptcy is involved. The whole system protects these shitbags. I’m not communist, I’m capitalist like fuck, which is why these fuckers need to go because there hasn’t been a free market since the 70s if not longer.

We do not live in a free country
We do not live in a capitalist society

If he lived in the worker's paradise he'd still make 3000 of those an hour, he couldn't afford any, and if he complained about it the NKVD would send him to a gulag in Siberia.

He should buy the $50k CNC machine that does these

Ahh yes, the single cog in the machine that thinks he does all the work

You can. go ahead and buy it and set it up yourself. Also maintain all the relationships for incoming materials and outgoing sales. Make sure to get the capital as well.

these

them

wtf are they though?

Expensive to who retard?

I own my own laipdary machines for facetting. I paid for it, so why not. You're welcome to own the means of production if you can afford it
However just because you got a job monitoring the output of a multi million dollar thermoforming machine DOESNT mean you should own that machine just because you're the one using it at the time. I had a job doing that, it was boring as shit I was handling up to 6 at a time for quality control

Nope. Neither have the owners of the business, lmfao.

He didn't say they did, only that the business owners need to compensate those people. If the business owner doesn't pay for the machines then the people who designed, built and maintained the machines aren't getting paid.

why shoudn't the workers own the means of production

They absolutely can! Why don't they? All they have to do is pool their money and buy some means.
Sounds like a (You) problem.

why would i buy shit and give it to the workers to own if i bought it myself

We do not live in a capitalist society

Stop using communist words.

I agree with you that current system is definitely not really a free market. But we need to stop this retarded confusion being spread by both commies and MMT believers and governments that somehow the combination of free market and private property is "capitalism" when in reality what they call "capitalism" and what commies complain about is really just inflationary fiat currencies and economy built on cheap credit and financial money magic like sock markets which run on fear, hype, and memes rather than representing actual economy and actual value of it.

We need to disentangle the problem of jewish money magic from fundamental building blocks of freedom and prosperity which are private property and freedom to trade and associate.

No, but they paid for someone to build those, and whoever build them paid for licenses to build them and whoever owns the license either invented it or bought the rights from the inventer.

No they didn't. They financed it through a bank loan. Bank loans aren't actually loans but are really credit (legalised fraud: issuance of fictional cash and coins into circulation under the pretence that it's physically existing legal tender). They're paid for by and through inflation. Which means that the cost of lending is socialised/externalised to everyone in society with an income or savings, by diluting the purchasing power of their income and savings.

In effect everyone is rewarded for the contribution.

Hardly everyone, lmfao. What a butthurt moron (typical pole).

But you don't like that do you you communist fuck?

I don't like inflation, I don't like unemployment, I don't like deindustrialisation. I don't like importing niggers and shitskins to replace White people with. If capitalism didn't have any of these characteristics, I would have no problem at all.

You'd rather people who have never invented anything in their life, or built a complex mechanism in their life, to be rewarded the same as someone who has?

I'd rather there was no inflation, no unemployment, no deindustrialisation and no depopulation and/or niggerification of White society. That's it.

No thank you. How about you fuck off?

No, thank you.

Fine, pay him with 120 of those things instead of cash. Problem solved

Well, if the means of production break, are the workers going to repair it for no compensation? Or are they going to leave at seek compensation elsewhere?

Why do you feel entitled to other's people unpaid labour? Are you jewish?

How does he make them? Using tools and materials he bought with his own money?

hes one of maybe 4 guys on the floor.

yep people ITT have never seen a low paying small company "factory"
waged in one years back for a few months, its 70% within family, three women did jackshit and just yapped, one guy sat there with massive headphones and did his work but you had to shake him to get him out of his world kek, two overseers and one didnt know what he was doing and just sat on his phone, the other guy did all the work.
we sent a package to chinks giving them electronic parts and THEY sent it back cause of the shit quality and sent a complaint.
the only good parts made were made by 4 guys out of 16.
this is about welding small chips btw

Fuck you, I would rather you all get nuked than keep this shit going.

Based.

Yes, and a chink who works at TSMC deserves $800M for a month for pushing buttons

Why doesn't he? Because he doesn't want to risk buying the materials and machines to end up with no sales.

He doesn't make them. He presses a button or does a low skilled task to produce them with the given equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. This brain dead take on production is still mind boggling to me

Ask yourself why they don't.

Because he is part of the production process, he just isn't the only part of the production process. Materials need to be mined, refined, transported etc. Computers need to be designed, built, programmed etc. Machines need to be designed, built, maintained etc. These people also need to be compensated. Just because you are the final step in the chain doesn't mean the entire chain is your work.

So you're saying that capitalism cannot afford to purchase its own aggregate output at a price which makes it financially profitable to produce that output at? And therefore has to constantly make up the difference, on a continual basis, through printing fiat currency? And ever more of it ever faster as time goes on?

Owner of the invention, get a penny for every one. Thats 30 dollars an hour. That is MORE than enough money for the inventor to retire on for as long as its going. Given him nothing to do but invent another thing.

Oh, wait, a corporation demands the ownership of the invention. Stealing it from the inventor who actually invented it. That inventor didn't get royalties, he got a shit tier paycheck and his work stolen. Maybe a job for a few months at best. But its guaranteed he had a primary job hes being paid for that if he stopped he would be fired for. Invention or not his pay was contingent on something else. Thus he was NOT paid for his invention. It was stolen outright.

So theres another worker who's labor was stolen. Same thing for the designer of the machine. That guy got a paycheck, likely hourly, and it was contingent on that job, not the actual machine or any continuing money paid due to that machine he designed. So stolen again. The guy who built it? Yep, same thing. The guy who maintains it? Yep, hourly.

Each and every one of them getting the same 'returns' of dogshit and flee ridden filth the guy in OP was commenting about. Each of them lucky to obtain even 1 penny of worth off of each of those items.

Who is stealing the rest? That is a metric shitload of money stolen. Every hour. Of every day. This worker likely gets paid 15 an hour if hes the 'typical' manufacturing laborer. So each of those items can reliably be expected to sell at $5. Lets assume theres 20 others getting their 1 penny a piece.

That's only $0.25. WHO IS STEALING THE OTHER $4.75 a piece?

You clearly don’t understand modern machining.

made on CNC

by one guy

who maintains the CNC

who makes parts for the CNC

who packs and ships the product too

If you aren’t using a line from the 1930s, the automated nature has RADICALLY reduced labor costs and overhead needed. And that turns into pure profit for the boss.

we have this thing called robotic tending to replace button pushers but it doesn't work well enough at this point.

So why don't the owners fire them if they're worthless?

Their value is not in production, but in mitigating certain legal requirements. People hire niggers because the government says they need to have a certain amount.

Yep. The bodies they’ve buried are numerous beyond measure. To become a CEO of a megacorp involves not your success but the failure of hundreds of thousands of other people. And you have to arrange a LOT of those failures.

Which means we select executives based on their ability to sabotage NOT improve the business which is lead to the complete collapse of productive capacity.

see

i make 3000 of them an hour

ok quit your job and keep making 3000 and hour to sell them for yourself, should be easy no?

because they instead choose to sell their labour as a commodity, taking less personal risk by not investing personal capital into a risky venture
they don't own the means of production because they don't own any means of production, but they CAN own means of production if they want to
a group of workers can rent a small industrial building and a machine if they so choose, at great personal risk to their capital
but they don't—they choose to sell their labour to somebody who took that risk instead

Just scrape 20 from the 3k and re sell them and you just doubled your wage. Ez and nobody noticed.

But if you worked at TCI that would be fine and he would have neither bought tools or raised capital. Get one of those guys, given him 50 quid and a stand in a fruit market, how many billion in profit could he make in a week?

This sort of payment model is described by Marx in "The German Ideology". Only banks, the boards of privatized companies and hedge funds use it. Why isn't Marxism good enough for everyone I wonder.

"You" don't make 3000 of those from scratch, retard. There are 1000's of others involved in that process. Your work is only a tiny part of it.

He doesn’t make 3k an hour. He never gathered/mined the resources nor built the factory and machines that make them, he just presses buttons and packages them

Because the worker is just a euphemism for the party and the party is corrupt and nepotistic and for every dollar you see 90 will go to the secret bank accounts that will never be audited.

If the workers actually understood how the means of the production actually worked then yes. They should have a hand in how to make money off it but they don't.
The reasoning? If they knew how they'd do it themselve.
Social Network put it best. There are two types of people in the world. People who want a job, and the people who create the jobs. The left sure as shit ain't one of the latter.

Absolute nonsense that you assert without any evidence.

You're just retarded (polish), mate. It's not that I need to provide evidence which I've not provided. It's that you're simply retarded. It can't be helped. You can take the pole out of pooland but you can't take the poolish jeans out of him.

Just because current economies are built on fiat doesn't mean you need fiat to have global trade.

Where did I mention global trade, retard? I specifically mentioned capitalism.

Does having an supply of easy to transfer currency that everyone accepts make international trade easier? Yes it does.

That's not my point.

Is it required to have international trade? No, it does not.

That's not my point.

Currencies can be tied to many things that are real, and don't require to be inflationary in nature.

Yes they do. To be inflationary in nature is precisely the main requirement for legal tender under capitalism.
This is why BTC or XMR will always and forever be stores of value and of payment but will never be legal tender in capitalist societies because their supply cannot grow geometrically perpetually. Which is what capitalism requires in its legal tender.

For example, you could have a currency based on electrical energy.

You missed the entire point.

You can have EURkWh for example, which could be issued by any power provider in any country in europe(or it could be national, doesn't have to be cross national), which could then be used to trade. And that's just one example.

Where does generalised financial profit come from?

The idea that you HAVE TO HAVE FIAT CURRENCY to have modern economies

Where did I mention "modern economies" I specifically said capitalism.

Anyway, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is possible and what is not possible, go back to the drawing board.

You're simply retarded and cannot visualise financial/money flows in your head. You probably also think the money in your bank account is actually real and actually exists.

Lmao, not in this country. The VAST majority of factories here are using legacy hardware from decades or even centuries ago. Automation is RARELY seen. It’s why we have no chance in competing in the world market for the vast majority of goods. Not labor costs, but a complete aversion to automation. And these zombie corps are kept alive by government largess (no bid contracts).

Why the fuck am I STILL talking to Communists?

The worker is not invested in the manufacturing of the product other than using the machines that make that product. Not the inventor or the owner. A ZERO INVESTMENT WAGE KEK CRYING ABOUT NOT CREATING ANYTHING.

HE SHOULD GO BE GAY FOR PAY
HE COULD BUY 3000 OF THOSE TINY COCK RINGS AT THE END OF HIS DAY OF SELLING HIS MOUTH AND BUTTHOLE TO AIDSFAGS

Give me one example of Communism working ever.

Worthy? So we get to the real crux of the matter with the argument against OP. It has nothing to do with pay. It has nothing to do with what he should be paid. That argument is just a grift to distract with and have others argue about while the REAL reason he isn't paid you've clearly and eloquently stated.

He simply isn't worthy of it. Hes a subhuman. A dog. A vile goy slave. Nothing more, nothing else you need to know. The jew and their child fucking supporters are better than him. Better than every other stupid slave talking here.

You don't 'deserve' to be paid more. You are not human to us, your elites. Simple as. And the real reason.

Capitalism is an anti-economic anti-system of fiction, fraud and parasitism.

I thought these were guides for glock 9mm magazines
Then i realized i dont know what the fuck they are
So what the fuck are they guys?

Technically, the workers could own the means of production, but they never share stop being so selfish workers share your means of production with me right now

There are plenty of employee owned companies. All the workers have to do is put up their money and they can own any company they want.

That's the beauty of capitalism.

That's why communism sucks.
There isn't a single "worker owned" company in any communist country, and never has been. Why are you arguing about a retarded lie with a socialist faggot ?

You're just retarded (polish), mate. It's not that I need to provide evidence which I've not provided.

Oh, so you just admin that you have no evidence for the assertion? Nice.

To be inflationary in nature is precisely the main requirement for legal tender under capitalism.

You're complete missing the point. You're saying "inflationary fiat currencies are necessary for credit based economies", I'm saying "you don't need inflationary currencies if your economy is not based on credit". But you're too dumb to understand this I guess.

Where does generalised financial profit come from?

And here you are, using jewish language tricks to try to talk about a real problem. If you're asking "how can shareholders make money if profits are not counted in an inflationary fiat currency" then you're missing the point again. Shares and dividends can be measured in anything you want, it's only a question of how you can make bids to buy and sell shares on a market, and as long as people accept BTC or gold bars for it you can trade it.

Where did I mention "modern economies" I specifically said capitalism.

And yet you insist on not really giving a good definition, because you actually like the flacious conflation of jewish money magic with free market and private property.

You're simply retarded and cannot visualise financial/money flows in your head.

Oh boy, you're so smart dude, wow, clearly you're way smarter than me because you say so. I mean, really, i'm impressed, if you said you're smart then surely you must be.

According to the labor theory of value I should get paid for giving my time to reply to this shit thread

OP: Point out some worker owned companies in China please. Apple ? Nike ?

and tomorrow stupid's like you will be wondering why you don't have any workers that can actually do your jobs anymore. Like they've been complaining about for the last few years.

lol
lmao

calling others stupid when your this dense.

shit-posting on Anon Babble is socially necessary labor

Why doesn't comrade reddit buy his own CNC machine then?

Because when workers own the means of production they also own control over input pricing which inevitably results in failure to continue producing surplus value. For example, a firm operates at a profit and thus is able to continue operations. In part, that’s because wages are set in a top down fashion with ultimate authority resting with the business owner(s). If workers were able to control the wages, they would naturally want to set them as high as possible, driving up operating costs and eating into that profit margin more and more until there is no profit margin left and the business can’t continue operating.

paid 3 an hour

make 3000 an hour

use 3000000 an hour

They're butt plug ribs

I have to pay 10 days of my own labour for an electricians 1 day of labour

This one company quouted me 4k for a day worth of labour kek
Fuck you all

he doesn't actually have intelligence, he just likes to argue

taking less personal risk by not investing personal capital into a risky venture

What a flaming faggot you are. Business owners didn't risk anything. They either got a bank "loan" (socialism, the cost of the "loan" - actually credit - is socialised through inflation / devaluation of the incomes and savings of everyone in society) and have personal bankruptcy protection or they got funding through an IPO. And the people who bought in did so with bank credit.

they don't own the means of production because they don't own any means of production, but they CAN own means of production if they want to

lol, no they can't. They can't afford to buy or build means of production. 99.99% of the labour force cannot afford to do that while continuing to cover their living expenses, let alone support a family, have and raise kids etc.

a group of workers can rent a small industrial building and a machine if they so choose, at great personal risk to their capital

No, they cannot. They cannot afford to. They cannot afford the necessary bank loan (actually credit), they cannot afford the loan payments. They also have living expenses to cover from their incomes. They need to continue working if they want to continue having income. Assuming they're safe from being fired, lmfao.

but they don't—they choose to sell their labour to somebody who took that risk instead

Disgusting jewish faggot. Unlike you, they actually work for a living. Which means 8 to 10 hours of your day then who knows how many more hours commuting. Then eating, cooking, raising kids, doing household chores etc.

well steal them and sell them on the side

Source?

Clutch dampers, according to (((google))). But it also tells me Covid is deadly and the vaxx doesn't cause cancers or blood clots, so take it with a grain of salt.

Should robots own the factories they work at ? Hasn't this faggot heard of Skynet ?

You are confusing capitalism with “capitalism” tm Jewish supremacy version.

Capitalism works just fine in that all these zombie corps die. But once Jewish finances get involved the underlying mechanism goes to shit. Remember the jewdicial system stopped ford from paying his workers more.

Nor did his boss, yet he makes 150x more.

Why is it the state's job to subsidise the unproductive? That's essentially your argument

what the fuck is it and why would anyone want whatever it is, a belt buckle?

Did he buy the tools and bring in the materials to make them? Or does he just shape them and assume nothing else went into that?

Commies could afford to have a wife and children. That's more than this worker. Unless this worker is ok with living out of his car with his wife and kids, hes a choice at $15 an hour to either pay rent or feed his kids. Commies got a place to stay out of it along with their families.

That is a FUCKLOAD better option for the worker than what is going on right now nigger.

Not if the product is patented!

They do sound awfully jewish, don't they?

They're just useful enough to be paid a wage to do a job a drone otherwise could and probably will in the future, they have to employ them because of labor laws. The work isn't real labor though, you're made to stand 7 hours of the 8 in in your shift to trick you into believing it's laborious, you could be sitting doing the same job but then your attentiveness may drop affecting quality control. The Just-In-Time industry makes parts or products to order, they deliberately don't backstock product because it's a liability if product isn't sold, these companies can't pay people if they don't sell product. You wouldn't have this shitty sort of industry if people weren't obsessed with instant gratification but they are, so enjoy slaving. The consumer is ultimately at fault for your faggot woes.

So you got paid enough to actually move up in the world? Nice, is OP? Obviously not grandpa.

Start a co op

HE makes 3000 of them every hour? Then why does he work for the factory - he could boost his income by 1000x by simply going home and making 3000 of these by himself!

Oh wait. He can't. Because he merely operates the machine that spits them out and uses raw material for input. He doesnt own the machine. He didn't mine the metal, or refine it into usable raw metal, or purchase it, or design the machine to make these widgets, or purchase any part of the factory needed to make this, or even find a single customer or client to buy these things to make them worth making in the first place. No, hes just a fucking machine operator living in fantasy land, and I'm actually much more sympathetic to the plights of the average worker than most people

you talk like lower income people—working class people—do not and cannot start businesses
they can, they do, they're sometimes wildly successful
they do exactly what you describe: they get a bank loan, often at great personal risk
you completely deny the talent and agency of the working classes

Ahhh, now you have just changed from an argument of:

hes one of thousands making the product

To

why doesn’t he just make them himself

Completely missing my entire spiel about HOW these companies continue to exist:

no bid contracts

Which means the government straight up places orders from that company and that one alone precisely to keep that factory running and continue the graft. Comrade buys a cancer he can make all those parts but he won’t get that contract no matter what.

Welcome to slavery.

Oh, so you just admin that you have no evidence for the assertion? Nice.

You should go back to roddit and stay there with the other vile, retarded subuhmans.

You're complete missing the point. You're saying "inflationary fiat currencies are necessary for credit based economies", I'm saying "you don't need inflationary currencies if your economy is not based on credit". But you're too dumb to understand this I guess.

You miss my entire point. Let me reiterate it for your retarded polish ass:
Without money printing, capitalism cannot afford to purchase its own output for a financial price which makes it financially profitable to have produced that output in the first place. Because the money for the financial profits does not exist.
What about the above do you not understand?

And here you are, using jewish language tricks to try to talk about a real problem. If you're asking "how can shareholders make money if profits are not counted in an inflationary fiat currency" then you're missing the point again. Shares and dividends can be measured in anything you want, it's only a question of how you can make bids to buy and sell shares on a market, and as long as people accept BTC or gold bars for it you can trade it.

Retard, where does the money for the financial profit come from to sustain an entire economy which runs for financial profit?

And yet you insist on not really giving a good definition,

Of what?

because you actually like the flacious conflation of jewish money magic with free market and private property.

Retard, where does the money for the financial profit come from to sustain an entire economy which runs for financial profit?

Oh boy, you're so smart dude, wow, clearly you're way smarter than me because you say so. I mean, really, i'm impressed, if you said you're smart then surely you must be.

137 geospatial IQ.

single-handedly deboonks the myth of the Great Man captain of industry who is essential to the success of his businesses

If he shoved them up his butt on gay only fans he would make a lot more

Some businesses and industries have stupidly high markups on cheap items.
Past a certain point you're not paying for the cost of the machines and labour but just because.
I'm part of the final part of a machine that can cost some £12k at minimum, half it's cost is probably just paying people's wages at this point.

Baker thinking to himself "why am I baking 200 loafs of bread? I can only eat one!"

False. The majority of people on the planet work for cooperatives.

Wrong. These are produced for a contract (usually first or second order no bid co tracts).
He could go home and make 30,000 an hour but he won’t sell a single one. These aren’t consumer facing products. It’s why the production lines still use hardware from the freaking 1920s. Because in a no bid contract economy where you get contracts via graft, there is NO incentive to modernize, or treat your workers well.

The problem is that the amount of money the owner can derive from the equipment is nearly infinite, the amount of money the worker can derive from his own time is finite. But only the wealthy or banks can afford equipment.

isms

I don't believe in isms.

Okay, no one should be paid for doing anything unnecessary

immediately 99% of jobs are cut and no one can afford the remaining necessary labor

3 x 20 = 60

So still not 3,000 an hour?

Wow buddy you sure showed him. I'm sure the richfags will give you a McDonald's coupon for your shameless bootlicking.

You are confusing capitalism with “capitalism” tm Jewish supremacy version.

You are one of the many who confuses trade, barter and commerce in general with capitalism.

Capitalism works just fine in that all these zombie corps die.

Not it doesn't. It runs on ever accelerating creation of fiat currency and therefore inevitably periodically fails through either hyperinflation or massive depression. Or both, in quick succession.

But once Jewish finances get involved the underlying mechanism goes to shit.

He thinks the underlying mechanism of capitalism isn't jewish.
lmfao

Remember the jewdicial system stopped ford from paying his workers more.

You're the one who wants to maintain capitalism and it's legalised frauds based on fiction, such as banking or corporate personhood, unequal treatment (under the fiscal code, the criminal code etc.) of fictional/juridical persons and natural/physical persons etc.

The problem is what socialist commerce ends up looking like.
This is truly grim, Americans couldn't handle it.
johnlewis.com/
sainsburys.co.uk/

Yay now we have more time for leisure

Commies could afford to have a wife and children. That's more than this worker. Unless this worker is ok with living out of his car with his wife and kids, hes a choice at $15 an hour to either pay rent or feed his kids. Commies got a place to stay out of it along with their families.

That is a FUCKLOAD better option for the worker than what is going on right now nigger.

Based.

Commies could afford to have a wife and children.

So could americans during the cold war. So can africans today. People not reproducing has nothing to do with economics.

maybe tell us what they are OP you giant spastic.

he doesn't make 3000 of them in an hour

Why does the company hire him then?

he, alongside other 20 worthless people make them in an hour, using tools and facility provided by someone else

The only "people" who can afford major infrastructure are banks. This is the crux of the problem.

20 worthless people

Why does the company employ worthless people? Let alone 20 of them?

if he could make 3000 of them every hour then he wouldn't need a factory to work in

If he wasn't making 3000 of them an hour the company wouldn't employ him

(leisure activities will be limited to starving, shooting dissidents, and suicide)
the khmer sends its regards

exactly, why is it the states job to promote stability and a sense of fairness in society. Why is it the states job to protect the elites from the plebs. Why are the plebs taxed to fund the protection of the elites to keep the plebs from hurting the elites. The state is already subsidizing the unproductive. The 'rich' in a fiat society are unproductive. And have spent decades erasing any stability within society at the expense of the productive.

Because you don't want to get pulled out of your car at an intersection and have some cartel shit done. That is why. So choose your path. Continue on, or watch shit become middle east tier, san's a stabilizing force of tribal support.

But that isn't what you were arguing right? You were arguing that those without money are scum and only those with it are human.

Without money printing, capitalism cannot afford to purchase its own output for a financial price which makes it financially profitable to have produced that output in the first place. Because the money for the financial profits does not exist.

You're just describing the same thing, which is the inflationary nature caused by credit. Essentially all you're saying is:

we have this system which is based on cheap credit

for cheap credit to work we need inflationary fiat currencies

this system allows for easy flow of capital to make investment into any area

the system requires growth to pay off the loans needed to create manufacturing in the first place

since we cannot create endless growth and demand for goods we can grow the money supply

by growing the money supply we can lessen the cost of the debt

in turn this also makes the goods cheaper at the end

this self perpetuating feedback loop of credit based economy is bad

Of course it's fucking bad. But once again, you're conflatinting jewish money magic with actual free market and private ownership. There's nothing wrong with private ownership of means of production, what is wrong is this fucked up system in which endless production requires endless credit which feed on endless inflation in perpetuity.

Once again, yes the jewish money magic is evil. No, private ownership of means of production, or any goods, is not evil.

Stop being a dirty commie and just admit that the issue is the credit based inflationary system, and not private property.

137 geospatial IQ.

Wow, such cringe.

Piss off, kike.

Sure, because there's no one starving or being shot under capitalism

People used to say shit like "ask an East German about that".
Now they don't, in case you do and all you'll hear is free healthcare, free childcare, free education, interesting jobs in the arts or the community and state subsidized holidays and leisure activities. They just assumed if stuff was advertised in the west, everyone could have it if perhaps they were on the right waiting list. The reality eventually dawned but it was too late.

you didn't make an argument. make a coherent one and get back to us.

if bad things happen to any extent under X, then we must adopt Y which has only ever made bad things happen

If those or anything else is so easy to make, why doesn't he do it himself?
With all the tariffs, you think that would bring out the entrepreneurial side in most Americans.

You wrote a wall of text that boils down to:

since “capitalism” has been co-opted by the Jews it must be Jewish. Communism too was once co-opted by the Jews, but china has been able to wrench it from them and show success. And capitalism showed great value throughout western history before we got taken over by the Jews.

sound money

homogenous communities

monocultural nations

NO Jews

And capitalism will work just fine. Because remember the workers ARE the consumers in capitalism so you have to treat them well to have. Market to sell too.

capitalism is in essence the freedom of entrepreneurs to borrow capital to start a business of their choosing. This is in contrast to communism where the state decides what businesses are needed. That's it.

All the seething butthurt from commies is derived from humans being intrinsically greedy and corrupt which will exist regardless of the 'ism' you put into practice.

The only "people" who can afford major infrastructure are banks. This is the crux of the problem.

Banks are legalised fraud.

Seriously, why shoudn't the workers own the means of production?

You mean like 3d printer for the cost of a single days wage?

I own a manufacturing facility, I understand this stuff. What you're referring to very rarely happens. That's why all companies have sales teams. You know, to find clients to sell your product to. You're acting like some randon well-connected person won a contract before even having a factory, and just built a company around the contract. This is an absurd scenario that isn't even really worth addressing in detail.

You mean more time to compete for sex, competition that will manifest economically in the form of competitive accumulation, and oh wait, we're right back at "capitalism" again.

Marxists are a joke because they fail to recognize sexual competition as the driving force behind rat-race economies. If people are hungry they will compete for food, but once they have enough hunger ceases to function as a driver of competition. If all human needs worked like this then societies would naturally become stateless and classless as technology solves scarcity.

The only human need that doesn't work like this is sex. This is because attractiveness is relative. You are being compared to other people therefore you need to be better than other people, therefore inequality must exist in any sexually liberal society. The social niche of "most attractive" can never be post scarcity. There can only ever be one most attractive guy by definition. Consequently there will always be competition to occupy that position irrespective of the level of technological advancement, and this competition will never stop escalating. I don't need 20 houses to live in, but if I need to compete for sex against chad who is better looking than me and owns 19 houses then I absolutely do need 20 houses, maybe even more. Sex is the *only* driver of economic competition that cannot be eliminated by technological advancement, and thus sex is the cause of all "capitalistic" forces in any sufficiently advanced society.

I may not know what a loan is but my dad works for nintendo!

Nobody is stopping them from opening their own factories, whiners

If you cannot separate the two, guilt by association. They are guilt and one and the same. We are at the point society either erases all jew ownership and power in our nations, or it is baby with the bath water tier change.

Are there other options? Yes. Are they VIABLE options. Obviously not. You cannot remove jews or their influence without massive civil wars and likely societal collapse due to their cancer having metastasized decades ago. So either provide a working actionable game plan to to resolve such issues. And do it in a viable time frame.

Otherwise people tend to choose pitchfork and fire over listening to nonsense. Kinda how humans work. Low IQ's arguing jewish words don't understand that.

I hate gooners so much

"I make" 3,000 of them in an hour

does he carve them by hand from an ingot? he operates the machine that makes them, which he couldn't buy on his own, service it, procure the raw materials, supply electricity or gas to it etc.

can afford 3 units on his hourly wage.

maybe because his job is pretty unqualified then, AND willingly agreed to work for that wage.

bottom line: the commies are retards

capitalism is in essence the freedom of entrepreneurs to borrow capital to start a business of their choosing

Except that "capital" is generated out of nothing by banks who are given a special right to do so by government.
Central banking is in fact one of Marx's 10 planks of communism. What most call "capitalism" is actually communism with extra steps. You've fallen for Hegelian dialectic.

I learned my lesson.
I do not fight against them anymore.
I joined them.
Republican Trump voter with over $1million in Tesla stock.

NHH

That's not what I'm saying, you retard.
What I'm saying is that capitalism runs on ever accelerating money creation. Which requires that the money be fiat currency, because that's the only way you can have that.
You keep jumping the gun and brining credit into the discussion.
The money creation need not be through interest bearing loans.
But capitalism does everything for financial profit and does nothing NOT for financial profit or at least not with the expectation and the goal of achieving financial profit.
So capitalism also does money creation for financial profit.
And the only way to do money creation for financial profit is to lend the newly created money at interest into the economy.

Of course it's fucking bad. But once again, you're conflatinting jewish money magic with actual free market and private ownership.

You are fucking retarded and keep conflating barter, trade and commerce with capitalism. Barter, trade and commerce can exist without and outside of capitalism.
Capitalism cannot exist without fiat currency or ever accelerating creation of fiat currency.

There's nothing wrong with private ownership of means of production, what is wrong is this fucked up system in which endless production requires endless credit which feed on endless inflation in perpetuity.

So capitalism.

Once again, yes the jewish money magic is evil. No, private ownership of means of production, or any goods, is not evil.

Once again, you don't actually own anything of real value in capitalism.
1. Property taxes on land, real estate, cars, boats.
2. Your income and savings are continually being devalued by the perpetual geometric growth of the money supply. Your money buys increasingly less and less over time. It's devalued by loss of purchasing power. Where are your property rights over your income and savings?

just admit that the issue is the credit based inflationary system, and not private property.

So capitalism. Yes, I admit.

Wow, such cringe.

Jelly.

Americans could afford that in Cold War days as well, even hippie junkies.
I'm ready to praise Stalin every moment of the day, but we don't have an example of a Communist state under a crisis economy (save for WWII USSR, which was a matter of surviving an attempted genocide, so comfy civilian reasoning is not a part of that equation).
The entire world is in economic crisis and the powers that be are mostly interested in trannies. I do maintain that if there were still a Cold War and America needed a gung-ho cadre of absolutely commited patriots ready to assault the Soviets within 48 hours including flight time, they'd be more watchful about pushing niggers as sex symbols, but I cannot say for sure Communism would be able to effectively combat the existential economic problems of the present day. If 80s Russia is anything to go by, mass-produced homes would get so tiny and jam-packed, the people living there would see the Red-White-Blue American flag get replaced by a Red-White-Green Americano flag, snicket "lol, the elites got gottem'd" and carry on suffering, maybe with an additional uptick of drug proliferation, but otherwise not really noticing the fed meltdown

you've zero response to the point that working class people actually frequently do start businesses
not a surprise

This is one of the sources of greed, yes, jews run the banks

confuses trade, barter and commerce in general with capitalism

That is literally capitalism though, you don't move wealth without need or incentive but you as the worker aren't personally tending to any of that, you make a piece of product in which you are duly compensated for. You just sound mad that there exists unequal compensation across services rendered but base labor requires no significant buy-in, shit like this is why commies almost always establish gulags/prisons to retain an unpaid labor force.

capitalism is in essence the freedom of entrepreneurs to borrow capital

Hey lying jewish faggot, bank loans are creation of new fictional fiat currency which nevertheless spends just as if it physically existed.

to start a business of their choosing.

The cost of which is subsidized by the dilution of the purchasing power of the population's income and savings.

All the seething butthurt from commies is derived from humans being intrinsically greedy and corrupt which will exist regardless of the 'ism' you put into practice.

You are fucking retarded. The future is non-capitalist or non-human. Simple as.

must work to afford food

take any work to afford food

work does not pay enough to rise above just buying food.

its your fault you 'willingly' didn't starve to death goy

Hold on little jew, stop getting the goy riled up and realizing they can simply burn down your nation and take that wealth from you instead of treading on a wheel like a rat.

This is what we are arguing about in this thread. Trying to convince people being a goy slave to a fucking jew, is just and right since you are a worthless vile subhuman poor. So accept your fate and don't get violent and take what I stole from you back.

We DO live in a society don't we? We are all in it together.

Ah yes, all you need to win a contract is a loan! Just a little capital sitting in a bank, thats all that a contract requires! You just tell the client "I'll make whatever you want for the price that want if you give me this contract, I promise! You see, I took out a loan!".

The Turk admixture has really dropped your IQ, Hans

none of what you typed changes my post being true.

does he carve them by hand from an ingot?

Well clearly whatever he's doing is indispensable or the company wouldn't employ him, right?

he operates the machine that makes them, which he couldn't buy on his own, service it, procure the raw materials, supply electricity or gas to it etc.

Only banks can afford to purchase major infrastructure up front; that's the scam. The "owner" probably couldn't afford it either.

maybe because his job is pretty unqualified then

ESL?

AND willingly agreed to work for that wage

Almost nobody "willing agrees" to work; this is the biggest lie in economics. Most people don't work because the "agree" to, they work because the alternative is destitution or death. Choice made under such a threat/coercion cannot be free/willing by definition. It's like saying someone "agreed" to give their money to a mugger. Only when someone can choose not to work with basically no consequence is employment truly "voluntary".

bottom line: the commies are retards

Yes. But most of what people describe as "capitalism" is in fact communistic.

Once again, you don't actually own anything of real value in capitalism.

Sophistry. Just because taxes exist doesn't mean people don't own things. You might not be jewish but you argue like a jew.

Jelly.

What's cringe is that you think that's high. Have fun with your danning krugger effect commie. I gotta make dinner.

Do you? Or do you just operate machinery owned and maintained by someone else, with electricity owned amd paid by someone else, in a building and ground owned and paid by someone else, working material that also is bought by someone else?

Banks are a scam no matter who runs them.

Except that "capital" is generated out of nothing by banks who are given a special right to do so by government.

This is why I hate using weasel words like "capital" or "value". Jews use these as weasel words in their pilpul. They keep changing their meaning as expedient and conducive to their pilpul in the current moment. They'll say they mean something now and then something completely different, maybe even contrary, 5 minutes from now.

Central banking is in fact one of Marx's 10 planks of communism.

All banking is legalised fraud, retard. Not just central banks.

What most call "capitalism" is actually communism with extra steps. You've fallen for Hegelian dialectic.

Another one with the:
nut muh tru gapidalism©℗™(pbuh)!
canard.

yes, but the jews run them.
Their whole society and culture revolves around numerical trickery and usery. Do you think jews will cease to exist after your glorious revolution?

> does he carve them by hand from an ingot?

Well clearly whatever he's doing is indispensable or the company wouldn't employ him, right?

soon.... business can replace low skill labor

I did make an argument. Disproof by counterexample. Your claim was that people aren't able to start families and have children because they can't afford it. I provided a counterexample to disprove this. If lack of wealth is the primary barrier to starting a family and having children then why do africans have by far the highest fertility rates anywhere in the world? Are they all secretly millionaires and the mudhuts and e-waste mining is just a disguise?

Just steal 3 you stupid bastard.

and then no-one has any money to buy the shit they are making and the whole thing collapses

That is literally capitalism though,

No. Capitalism is a for-financial-profit operated economy.
Which is only possible with a perpetually geometrically expanding supply of legal tender.

If lack of wealth is the primary barrier to starting a family and having children then why do africans have by far the highest fertility rates anywhere in the world?

They do NOT care about any one child, as long as they have MANY children to care for them when they get old.

so the choice is accept being a rat slave. Or accept you have to remove those who say you have to be a rat slave.

yea. obviously.

You just tell the client "I'll make whatever you want for the price that want if you give me this contract, I promise! You see, I took out a loan!".

The Turk admixture has really dropped your IQ, Hans

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_International_Arctic_Warfare

Can your dad get me an autograph from Reggie or does he go to another school in Canada?

They receive an amount of money for standing next to these machines exactly according to the market value of their time

Then why does a bunch of workers negotiating together suddenly make their time more valuable?

white people don't tend to act like niggers when it comes to blasting out kids. But just as a thought experiment, list out things that have suppressed birth rates and compare that to a list of things to ecourage them.

Amazing how Anon Babble always turns into a bunch of lolberts as long as you put a commie flag on your post and use Marxist phrasing for this stuff. If OP had made this thread with a geoflag and had put in there that Jews shouldn't own everything (including factories) there'd probably be 100% support.

These people are all fleshy bots, they react to stimuli and that's it.

>and then no-one has any money to buy the shit they are making and the whole thing collapses

Unlimited FREE porn, yet women sill make money making porn
Unlimited FREE music, yet musicians still make money

You have no concept of value

low skill labor

This is just a libel to degrade and underpay people. If the work is "low skill" then why is the world's most advanced technology (robots we still haven't perfected) needed to replace it? Somehow we can automate chip fabrication, but not janitors?

Sophistry.

No, lol. Not at all.

Just because taxes exist doesn't mean people don't own things.

Nigger, you don't actually own ANYTHING you pay property taxes on.
Also, eminent domain also means you don't actually own your property.

You might not be jewish but you argue like a jew.

Projection.

What's cringe is that you think that's high. Have fun with your danning krugger effect commie. I gotta make dinner.

Oh, it's quite high. It's not the highest but it's more than most, for sure. Stay salty.

Banks are a scam no matter who runs them.

Yes, banks (ALL of them, not just central banks) are legalised fraud.
Based post.

imagine a society where everyone is an e-whore

I think people pay the e-whores from doing codemonkey jobs which has left them unable to talk to an actual female in the real word.

Somehow we can automate chip fabrication, but not janitors?

YET!
Basic humanoid robot requires a minimum level of technology we did not have UNTIL NOW!

Niggers aren't human, jew. But you know that, don't you?

it's a definite source of corruption, like a farmer with a shed full of turnips

so the choice is accept being a rat slave. Or accept you have to remove those who say you have to be a rat slave.

yea. obviously.

The choice is to accept being soft killed, maybe as you wage slave. While your income and savings buy increasingly less and less over time. Or whatever the alternatives are.

which has left them unable to talk to an actual female in the real word.

What are they

listen to my argument goy

spout's fallacy.

again, you didn't actually make an argument. And now your making a separate argument to imply your first was correct. Distracting with nonsense. A nigger or their actions in some other environment has NOTHING to do with whites or white societies. I know filthy kike scum don't see a difference, but if you are not a kike, you should understand how comparing apples to apples is how you argue and not shifting over to explaining how into sour grapes somehow proves your argument about apples works.

Please try again. Your argument doesn't exist.

But that "yet" makes all the difference. You can automate just about anything with enough tech; that's not the point. People would describe chip fabrication as high skill and janitorial work as low skill. But chip fabrication was easier / lower tech to automate than janitors. Again, the "low skill" label is just a scam to pay people less.

This is just a libel to degrade and underpay people. If the work is "low skill" then why is the world's most advanced technology (robots we still haven't perfected) needed to replace it? Somehow we can automate chip fabrication, but not janitors?

People's pay becomes increasingly worth-less over time, as time goes on.
So basically, capitalism is rationing with one extra step (money/legal tender/fiat currency).
Except your rations become smaller and worse quality over time.
KaeK

People don't know how to think critically. What you're describing is exactly the Hegelian dialectic trap.

In poor countries children are free child labour
When you're cost to raise a child can be net negative you earn money on every kid

1pbtid

memeflag

lmao traders who make their bank $100 million a year, get paid less than $1mil

incredible to try and fail 4 time in a row to sound smart

Employee owned companies do exist, as do coops. Apparently he and his coworkers aren't as ambitious and capable as those workers who do own their workplaces.

Marx was a lazy Jew who grifted off his rich friends.

The people who run the companies simply don't want to increase wages. They want the money for themselves. They come up with all sort of economic, philosophical, and even religious arguments for it. But it all really comes down to, "Fuck you, that's why."

Again, the "low skill" label is just a scam to pay people less.

If anyone can do your job with just one week of training then your job is 'low skill'

The Hegelian dialectic is not a trap. According to Hegel, the back and forth of history, though seemingly circular, is an upward spiral of progress that leads to better and better futures. Yes, the dialectic is harsh and people are destroyed for progress to occur, but this is the iron logic of history and is inescapable, as much a law of nature as gravity or electromagnetism.

Refute one of my arguments instead of bitching then.

And that "better future" is communism.

though seemingly circular, is an upward spiral of progress that leads to better and better futures

This is just the sophistry equivalent of "line go up means world more gooder"

It is not possible to not be a rat slave if your immediate 1 million neighbors are also rat slaves. If you "carry yourself as a lion" or whatever, you'll only get ridiculed for being a weirdo / schizo, but you'll still have to participate in the rat race.
Forget money for a minute, forget hot -isms, and lay down a plan under which, with current availability of raw materials and labor supply, you could build sufficient housing of decent and DIGNIFIED quality for everyone, keep all the builders well-fed and adequately housed, and keep hundreds of millions of people on board with your plan. If you can't provide all the people in substandard accommodation with new and proper living spaces within a year, if you "solve" your scarcity problem by planning out your development project over the span of 10-15 years, how are you going to at least partially fulfill the people's needs in the meantime?

inb4 natsoc

There's a million chuds out there that would provide labor for your aryan superstate hyperborean breeding ground construction project, but those million chuds have a million kid cousins that care only about nigger perms, licking their own lips, and deathgripping with baby lotion while they dream of latina ass. Do you let these useless eaters starve to death or not? If you let them survive, what will they work on? They don't believe in the hyperborean breeding suburbs. If you leave them to eat without work, they will have the free time to do damage (because unoccupied people do damage), and the 200k chud-adjacents next to your 1 million chuds will get butthurt that zoomers get to jack off doing jack shit all day, and quit working.
You are now considering using military force to keep your degenerates in line. Congratulations.

So jewish non-capitalism is the real problem? This guy should show some hustle and become a drug dealer or something.

This anon gets it. Companies fail because of stupid decisions by owners and managers. Not because of what they pay their workers.

Because 99% of workers are subhuman drones incapable of making good decisions, hence, you will own nothing and have to accept you’re a loser in life, OP.
Stop being a Jewish faggot believing in the myth of successful communism like a teenage idiot.

They want the money for themselves.

WRONG... they want want the money for the share holders.. and they are a large share holder

yes, using force to keep degenerates, mainly I.E. JEWS in line, is what is missing in the west. Conflating them with niggers doing things is foolish and well... conflated.

You are not really arguing against me btw.

And that "better future" is communism.

A moneyless society is unavoidable. And yes, very much superior.

This is just the sophistry equivalent of "line go up means world more gooder"

"The line" no longer exists in a moneyless society.
The future is moneyless, no matter how kikes kvetch and coomplain.

The future is moneyless, no matter how kikes kvetch and coomplain.

define 'money'
Why is it poor ass people always sprout this shit?

I make hydraulic units for some of the biggest mining equipment in the world. I run 2 CNC machines, averaging about 14 hours total production between the 2 each day. Our hourly cost per machine to the customer is about $125, so I produce about $600,000 per year. My total compensation with overtime, bonuses and health insurance and all the payroll taxes is about 150k/year. My take home after taxes is $1700/ week. Personally I find that fair. Im shitposting right now babysitting my machine while making overtime. Engineers need to be paid, quality control, shipping, material handling, sales, managers all need to be paid and the factory couldn't function without them, and then the boss deserves profit for supplying me with the machines and a building and contracts to work with

I know a guy who worked as a technician for those CNC machines. They are expensive first of all, goes up to a couple millions for one, cheaper ones are several hundred thousand. He was payed well because he had to travel to clients factories where those machines were sold. He was reimbursed for food, gas, hotels, etc. the company who made the CNC employed him and payed for all his expenses.
But those machines are very complex to work on, electrical part particularly, he would often have to phone his supervisor/manager to help him repair and diagnose the CNC of his client that broke down. Those CNC companies are owned by Jews, check Trumpf brand for example. Software is also very complex, but those machines were designed by teams of specialized engineers, complex shit and all hidden behind patents as usual by the usual suspects.

They can, it's called stock. They can buy stock in the company and get dividends and build wealth. Many companies give stock to employees as a bonus.

yours is a reasonable spread on pay vs output to be fair. a society always needs more produced than consumed by a worker. its a basic foundation of civilization from the first hunter/gatherer who could support a tribe to the first farmers in a village. The key is the feedback loop that would send more support back to those same people who's excess is being extracted.

Yours is on a spread that is reasonable. The other guys example is NOT. It would be you making $600 vs that $600,000 for the company. Not per hour, but period for your entire year. That is how decoupled things have gone.

The floor of paying people is zero dollars for full time slave work. THAT is the floor on labor cost with no limit on the amount stolen by their owners. If the even the majority of jobs were reasonable on their spread like yours seems to be in comparison it would be a different discussion going on right now in this thread. yours is just under 1/6 a return. Most companies are not paying their employee's that level of pay to wealth extracted.

The workers could put their wages together and start their own factory. But they would need to hire accountants and lawyers and learn how to deal with health/safety inspectors. Pay for insurance, etc. etc.

Just because taxes exist doesn't mean people don't own things.

You at best co-own something if another is in any way shape or form entitled to it.

Simply creating them is all that counts, there is no other cost associated with running a business whatsoever.

God I fucking hate commies.

The workers could put their wages together and start their own factory.

No they couldn't. The cost of building a factory far outstrips the combined total of most employees' wages, nevermind what they have left over after basic living expenses. The "owners" themselves probably couldn't afford it either; they're indebted to banks, shareholders, or both.

Seriously, why shoudn't the workers own the means of production?

He can. All he has to do is take out a 100k loan to buy the machinery needed and the materials required to get a start, then he will own every single one he makes. All he has to do then is negotiate a steady supply and enough customers to stay in business.
EZ, I don't know what this fag is crying about.

The overwhelming majority people cannot afford stocks, and are not given stocks as part of their compensation. They majority of stocks are owned by a tiny % of the population. You might as well argue that everyone who is paid is rich somehow.

It's crazy how people like you think it's reasonable that the only path to anything but being a wagie is to indebt yourself to a bank.

Some double digit IQ eastern worlder from India or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or Nigeria or Somalia or Kenya or any number of countries are just smart enough to be able to make 2500+ of those in an hour as well, so this guy is redditing on borrowed time.

people like you

first off, kill yourself faggot
secondly, I am offering him a path to making 3000 of those an hour and owning every single one of them.

No they couldn't. The cost of building a factory far outstrips the combined total of most employees' wages, nevermind what they have left over after basic living expenses. The "owners" themselves probably couldn't afford it either; they're indebted to banks, shareholders, or both.

It's ultimately all paid for with bank credit. Which is fictional fiat currency the bank pulled out of its ass. Which means it's paid for through inflation (devaluing the income and the fiat currency savings of everyone in society). So basically socialism for borrowers.

It's also a fucking machine shop, one of the most capital intensive businesses you engage in.

A VMC can run from like $70k for a tiny basic bitch American made one (Haas or something) to millions

Fix the fucked up currency then we can talk about savings funding capital intensive endeavors.

Those look to be injection molded parts. A surplus machine to make that is several thousand from hgr. Making the mold, idk. $10k. Then you can make as many as you want, but you have no sales or marketing.

So take out loans? Sounds like the problem isn't with the factory owners then. Unless they're the first cousin of the jewish banker who gave them their loan. Which... okay, is not unrealistic.

first off, kill yourself faggot

Name calling is not an argument

secondly, I am offering him a path to making 3000 of those an hour and owning every single one of them.

No you aren't. The whole point of your post was that getting financing to start a manufacturing business is very difficult and that's why he couldn't do it. But the reality is that even if someone did manage to pull it off, it's still a ridiculous deal. Banks get the special privilege to create fiat money, why should others have to work for it? Idiocy.

welcome to commucorp inc; here at commucorp we believe the workers should own the means of production and as such we require workers to provide their own tools and equipment, all of which must meet federal standards of course. furthermore since knowledge is power and the people must have the power we further require all necessary training or certification or mandatory regulatory inspection fees be firmly in the hands of the worker as well.

commucorp inc, where even niggers are people and the people are niggers.

now with 50% more led lighting

god damn pottery.

Capitalism is a catering economy, retard. It exists to satisfy a consumer demand, you could theoretically enact wealth caps to address the wealth disparity-to-skill ratio but you all always go too far, you begin eroding incentive for the very entrepreneurship that attempts to satisfy your initial consumer demand because the risk/reward is too imbalanced.

The whole point of your post was that getting financing to start a manufacturing business is very difficult and that's why he couldn't do it.

No, the whole point of my post is that if he wanted to make and own 3000 of those it is ridiculously easy for him to do it. Hell, he could probably borrow the money from his parents or grandparents to buy the machinery needed. You are dumb and probably brown.

So take out loans?

Another one. Why is it that some many people think that banks should get the magic privilege of creating fiat money, but others should have to work hard to "pay it back"? Every time someone suggest that "taking out a loan" is the answer, the point has been completely missed.

yes, but no. My broken haas vf1 was $5k and I fixed it for about $10 in orings from mcmaster. The gearbox in the head would no longer shift from high to low range.

You don't start out in manufacturing buying new, you buy surplus equipment, from a bankruptcy auction, or a surplus place like hgrinc.

t. owns a machine shop

What is the alternative proposed to earning a wage that matches amount of work you input. Do people just want all the money made by a factory to be put into a big pile and handed out until everyone has the exact same amount?

They never understand using someone else's money.

1 post by this ID

Every single day.

Yeah, everyone's parents and grandparents just have enough cash lying around to start a business. If it were so easy, nobody would have to go to banks. But even if they did, all that money had to be created by a bank. There's interest attached to it, even if it's no longer being paid by the original borrow. You don't understand how money works or how it's created in the current financial system.

taking out a loan is a bad idea. Small business start out with savings and money from friends family and fools. You may be struggling with the concept that 'life isn't fair'. You can navel gaze about that, or you can get out there and build a life.

IMAGINE HOW MUCH OF THOSE !== K PER YEAR YOU HAVE FEED SO YOU CAN MAKE A PROFIT AND YOU KNOW THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY USELESS.

Yes, they do. The evil creatures from the eastern world actually think that.

No, you don't understand it. It isn't someone else's money. It's money the banks magically got to make from nothing.

I'm not saying "take out a loan" is the solution. I'm saying the problem does not lie in private industries hiring people to build things and work machines. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

everytime im sad i just think about how capitalists and bootlickers WILL literally rot and burn in hell for all eternity just because they failed the simple test of being human. suddenly, my mood lightens up and i crack a big smile.

YOU KNOW THAT THOSE ARE SO FUCKING USELESS A FUCKING BOT COULD DO THIS AND IT DOESNT NEED A USELESS DEGREE.YOU AINT MANUFATURING THIS YOU ARE JUST A FUCKING PARASITE LOOKIUNG AT CATMEMES.,

Obviously because you can’t collectively own something. If you don’t directly control a thing, you do not own it. If you have to put every single decision in the factory to a full company vote (like how many pens to order every week), things will slow down to a halt. Someone will eventually be appointed to make decisions to streamline the process. Once this starts, it doesn’t stop. People will suddenly be in gatekeeper positions who will be able to grant or withhold benefits/resources. And then you’ll be right back where you started with people above the common worker dictating the terms of their employment. You just end up trading one master for another.

why should anyone engage with you at all?

If he thinks he can start a profitable business making those, he has all the knowledge of doing so, he makes them already. He knows the machines, he knows who the customer base is, possibly even how to improve them or the humility to offer them cheaper. So wtf, go get a loan and start your own business making things you know how to make. This generation expects mommy and daddy to do everything.

You get 25-50% in bonus and the rest goes to infrastructure / tech cost. High quality data doesn’t come free you know

and whats your solution? crying to the government til you get a handout? wahh wahh wahh please let me own the means of production daddy government please please please waahh wahhh wahh fuck off retard

The overwhelming majority people cannot afford stocks,

THIS is why you are poor.

To be fair, being a cheap, chicken-neck nelly piece of shit, crying and moaning and knocking stuff over until you get what you want, is a completely valid way of gaming the system.

Usually it's cheaper to give you and your group what you want than try to give everyone in society a fair shot with simple rules that make sense.

Now ask him what he thinks about women in the workforce.

you're arguing with a poorly-programmed bot

Between Robinhood, Acorns, WeBull, and whatever other investments apps, along with brokers waiving fees, there's no reason people can't invest $100 or more every month.
Don't go out for a weekend and buy some shares with that money.
Then again, Trump announces tariffs a month out and everyone claims it's insider trading when the markets fall the day the tariffs are in place.

It doesn't match his output though, that's the point. Most people can be paid better without jumping to the indeed ridiculous extreme you're describing. This is why every time there's a big strike, companies always argue they don't have the money to pay the demands, but won't open their books to prove it. They have it, they just don't want to pay.

An actual solution is paying people a percentage of profit. The percentage itself would be the negotiable thing, rather than a fixed wage. This solves many problems:

Employees have a real, automatic stake in company success. If they improve profit by say 10%, their pay goes up 10% automatically. No negotiating or dissimulating by the owners/management.
Likewise, employees have real, automatic negative feedback if they aren't doing their job. Of course employees who are truly not doing their job can be fired normally.
Since profit has to be implicitly publicly disclosed in order to pay everyone, unfair pay, "greedflation" etc. becomes much harder to pull of.

Fixed wages themselves are a scam, because you're being paid an arbitrary, flat amount for a quantity of work that will scale in value.

You are. Why don't you tell me?

and put it where in apartment?

I manufacture soil and custom aggregate blends, so I dont know who Reggie is.

Worker owned companies normally are not super successful; but they are out there. If that is the model you want, pool your resources with friends and do it. Even if you fail (and you will at first), what you gain in knowledge will easily be worth it. Do it.

Capitalism is a catering economy, retard. It exists to satisfy a consumer demand,

Does it satisfy consumer demand if the consumers cannot afford to pay enough to cover all production, shipping, marketing, distribution etc. costs and also generate financial profits for all the businesses involved in the supply chain?

you could theoretically enact wealth caps to address the wealth disparity-to-skill ratio but you all always go too far, you begin eroding incentive for the very entrepreneurship that attempts to satisfy your initial consumer demand because the risk/reward is too imbalanced.

jewish pilpul.

They keep doing these stupid comparisons like they make stuff and think they should get all the profits. If you think that, what's stopping you from opening your own business? Oh you can't get the capital to buy the machines? Oh you don't want to take the RISK of leasing a place and doing all the work? They think they are the only ones working at the company. Do you have to pay an accountant? Lawyer incause someone gets hurt? All the other things involved, purchasing, selling, marketing, etc etc. These are some of the most low IQ people on earth, communist fucks from reddit.

Between Robinhood, Acorns, WeBull, and whatever other investments apps, along with brokers waiving fees, there's no reason people can't invest $100 or more every month.

Investing is abstract is great but this is just a crapitalist (not calling you one, that's just what it is) talking point.
Putting away $100 a month in stocks is not going to do anything to actually change the circumstances of anyone's life. Even if we ignore risk (realistically you might lose it all! Or just gain nothing!) you might have a moderate pile of money after many decades. But what changed for some factory work's life during those decades? Nothing.

Labor theory of value is retarded.

Work at Aston Martin in UK

Make 50,000 BPS yearly

"I should be able to buy the thing that I make!!1"

That isn't how the economy works you fucking moron

Nice rhetorical slight of hand. I didn't suggest worker owned companies, I suggested profit percentage based pay instead of wages. Either can be implemented regardless of whether a company is public, private, or worker owned.

Another one. Why is it that some many people think that banks should get the magic privilege of creating fiat money, but others should have to work hard to "pay it back"? Every time someone suggest that "taking out a loan" is the answer, the point has been completely missed.

They're jews or golems of the jews.

marxists are always lying.

profoundly retarded post.

Ok, why am I wrong?

Its not a slight of hand; you can do that. How you structure the company is up to you.

you are full of shit. CNC is an automated lathe. You meed 3 stepper motors connected to 3 axis of old lathe and you have a cnc.
The reasons jews make it complex is because they are Jews. you could connect those 3 stepper's to rasbery pi and pull some open source software from git and you are done.

it takes so much more time to correct another person's lies than it takes to tell the lie in the first place. if you pay me money then i'll humor your retardation and have an earnest dialect with you, but if you won't pay me (i'll assume you won't) then i have better things to do, like fell a couple trees. later, homo.

1PBTID
NO EFFORT OP
300 BUMPS
ITS NOT EVEN SUMMER YET

This is interesting:

I first interpreted this as

I used to have to work an hour to afford 3 of these

Now I fabricate them and produce 3000 in one hour

Which made me think, yeah entrepreneurship is a lot of effort and risk but it has so many benefits for the individual and everyone else involved.

Then I realized how a communist would see this which is the opposite and inverted "WAAH I MAKE EVERYTHING AND THEY ONLY GIVE ME 3 WAAH"
Meaning you want to delete someone else's venture just because you don't make that much, instead of creating one yourself

That entitled line of thinking seeks to destroy just because you are entitled and feel things are unfair
While the opposite point of view is "I should create something so there is more stuff to go around"

Ok but I'm not talking about whether a company is worker owned or not; it's irrelevant to my point. There are certainly cases where people should be able to have their own business without selling the rights out to employees. But profit percentage based pay solves most of the issues posed by wages.

No, you don't understand it. It isn't someone else's money. It's money the banks magically got to make from nothing.

It's not even physical money. It's (((legalised))) fraud. Banks (((legally))) deceive people into thinking they have money in the bank they don't actually do or were paid money they haven't actually been paid.
lmfao. Imagine being such a buck broke golem that you defend this jewish scam on a Mongolian basket weaving hobbyist image board.

Most companies are not paying their employee's that level of pay to wealth extracted

Most people don't know how to negotiate and just accept what theyre handed each year at review. I've been with this current company for 3 years now and I'm the 2nd highest paid as far as I know out of about 50 guys. 13 years experience and I'm making more than our leadman with near 40 years loyalty to this place. If you dont pay I walk and if other people had a backbone the entire industry would be forced to raise wages

everytime im sad i just think about how capitalists and bootlickers WILL literally rot and burn in hell for all eternity just because they failed the simple test of being human. suddenly, my mood lightens up and i crack a big smile.

ikr?

It's crazy how people have internalized their slavery to banks and their fiat money.

Oh you don't like exploitation by megacorp? Indebt yourself to a bank then, loser!
It's really all they can imagine.

I would say whereever i want.

Normies are amoral emotional. Not moral emotional.

You over estimate how much things cost for one. Here build a company:

hgrinc.com/category/cnc/

The other thing is you under-estimate how hard things are. A lot of that stuff is junk. Some of it can make you a bundle. Somebody that knows will look at a thing and know in their bones what it is. No bank has that. You have it backwards the banks need you - but its a mistake to take out a loan imho.

Is that realistic? I could see a company being worth 5x the yearly wage of all the basic workers, and they'd be spending like 50% of their wages on basic cost of living stuff.
The rich are able to take out loans at better rates because of owning assets they can use a collateral (plus nepotism/cheating). Plus now the profit they generated is going to the capitalists who own shares in the bank instead of the capitalists who own shares in the factory.

Boomer detected. Plenty of companies today will pretextually fire out for trying to negotiate. And for most wagie tier jobs, imported (both legally and illegally) foreign labor = no negotiation power. Some (like you, evidently) think that being skilled/competent/valuable will protect you. It won't. Boeing was quite happy to outsource airplane software to jeets for $9 an hour, despite the disasters this inevitably caused. Negotiation was something boomers could do half a century ago, when companies' only alternative was another equally expensive white man.

You aren't advocating against capitalism, you're railing against finite resources constantly changing in value. Value only goes up precisely because those resources are finite, value may plateau if a new source is discovered but rarely is a new source greater than the sum of the total previously known. What that means is value doesn't severely reduce and workers can keep being paid steadily, the market doesn't crash as supply is adjusted and products are made accordingly. Your beef lies entirely with resource valuation, not capitalism. Don't like it? Go find more sources, the more the better.

Look buddy, if that is the social order that you want, and you believe that it works, you can make it happen. Nobody is going to stop you. Go do it. You will find out (probably) that it is harder than you think and that things are structured the way they are for reasons. You will see those reasons. But LFG - lets fucking go. The US and west is going to ramp manufacture. You can be a part of that - in whatever form you want.

Ok, now what is $100,000 boomer money when adjusted for inflation?

Im 33 and started doing factory work at 19 but keep coping and making excuses lol

posting an arbitrary piece of equipment proves businesses are affordable

You've solved it! One $10,000 machine is all anyone needs to start a company! How do you know any of those machines are appropriate for a given task? You might as well post a link to a Ford Focus and claim that nobody needs to buy a Cat bulldozer or even a large pickup. Look how cheap those Focuses are!

You're either a troll or a child.

lol. I own a shop. yes I do know. You don't (sadly). That's the problem.

Because they're parasites

Has it occurred to you that maybe someone who can't provide more value than being a factory worker after 14 years might not have the best grasp on how the economy works? Why is it that your employers make more then you, despite working less than you?

And I'm a navy seal.

Nobody in the history of mankind has become rich by walking and not eating. Not availing yourself of technology (cars) and physically neglecting yourself are probably the two stupidest mistakes you could probably make.

Very nice. Now ban fraud (outlaw banking and cancel fictional money in bank accounts) and let's see who starves over the subsequent few years.

I manufacture soil and custom aggregate blends

So you manufacture bullshit both off and online.

I could double the productivity of my current job in a few months if allowed to. Unfortunately my bosses are dumb cunts who's main skill is office politics

If this stuff interests you, go lurk the forums here:
practicalmachinist.com/
Its full of boomers who piss and moan, but they have an incredible amount of knowledge.

Also go to a trade school or get your hands on equipment as soon as possible. You want practical skills to get a job.

Morality is subjective.

Retard

Many such cases, unfortunately.

Practical skills are great! My complaint is precisely that those who practice them aren't paid enough. It's amazing to me that whenever someone raises this issue, they're attacked by people like you as whiners, retards, socialist, etc.

I'm saying if you don't like it, get your boys together (that have the skills), get a machine and make some money. It is harder than you think, but it is very possible. Set up the company to split the profits in any way you see fit.

The profit they make is the minimum amount to justify the risk they take, if their was so much profit to go around someone else would step into the industry and undercut it. I'll be starting my own small shop within the next 10 years and have a much better grasp on the numbers behind it than you do

I think you find out some very human things if you do this. Like some people slack off and let others carry the load; and lots of other stuff. But do it - the things you learn will carry with you for the rest of your life.

Yep, bullshit that makes me anywhere from $400k - $1.5m in profit

Its not hard to buy production machinery. THe companies don't give a flying fuck about whether your company is private, public, worker-owned or whatever. Worker-owned businesses and equity distibution programs are also fairly common given the supposed hatred of the concept in places like the US, most people dont' even consider it socialism even though its basically one of the core ideas of socialism.

why shoudn't the workers own the means of production?

You can. It's called capitalism. Start a business and own your tools. Then when your business grows hire people to work for you.

Almost nobody who "owns" a business owns it anon. They're borrowing it from a bank.

Could you sell the result of doubled productivity at the same price point though? This assumes you have buyers for your excess product, idle product sitting on a shelf isn't making any money.